World Wide Web Fights presents
WWWF GRUDGE MATCH

The Setting

Pretty simple this week. What if Obi-Wan really tried?

Darth Vader vs. Obi-Wan Kenobi

Obi-Wan Kenobi

vs.

Darth Vader

The Commentary

BRIAN: Whoa! That's a tough one! I'll need some time to think about it...................... ........................ ......................... ................ ............... Gotta go with the Dark Side, Steve. True, Obi-Wan is a Jedi Master, but remember that Darth had the same training as Kenobi. There's a reason Darth switched sides: he knew which one was better. It really pains me to say this, you know how big a fan I am of Alex Guiness and all (I really loved him in Bridge on the River Kwai): evil wins out. Darth's got the knowledge, he's got the skills, he's got the rage, he's got that big cape and scary helmet and that spooky, heavy breathing, obscene phone call voice. (That reminds me, wasn't James Earl Jones great in Field of Dreams?) I know it's going to break the heart of America, but Vader would have won even if the old guy had tried.

STEVE: If there is one thing that I have learned from watching TV and movies (that's a big "if"), then it is that good always wins. There may be limited exceptions to this rule in old episodes of The Twilight Zone, but the vast majority of "winners" in the entertainment media are the "good guys." Obi-Wan IS a good guy, therefore he will win. Plain and simple.

This is an extremely powerful argument in itself, which is why the previous Grudge Matches have been so difficult to call. They have all been good vs. good or evil vs. evil. That extra perplexing factor vanishes in this match, leading to only one possible conclusion: Darth Vader impaled on a light sabre.

BRIAN: If this argument is so powerful "in itself", then, how, might I ask, could Obi-Wan have lost in the first place. OH, I know you'll say, "Well, Brian, as we so clearly established previously, Obi-Wan wasn't trying the first time." But if your claim is that "good always wins" you are claiming that all other factors are irrelevant (except, as mentioned, a few episodes of the Twilight Zone. Remember that one with Burgess Meredith when he breaks his glasses...). If "good always wins" then Obi-Wan must have won the first time, which we know he didn't, so you're theory is just a bunch of ewok bung.

And besides, the fact that good "always" triumphs over evil is a result of poor Hollywood writing where the annoying storylines (such as Die Hard 2 or Dennis the Menace) can only achieve closure if good wins out at the end. The story in Star Wars is good enough to allow for evil winning this minor battle, as long as good wins the war (blowing up the Death Star). The proof that this story doesn't need Obi-Wan to win is demonstrated by the fact that he didn't in the original picture and we still had sufficient closure. (If you don't believe me, rent Escape From New York sometime: bad guy gets the best of good guys, great closure.)

STEVE: Enough of the superficial arguments. Let's talk facts. First, Who trained Vader? Yep, it was good 'ol Obi himself. Obi is the master, Vader is only a student. Second, Vader is a walking freak show and belongs in a circus. He even needs his respirator to breathe! Underneath his flowing cape he is really just a walking hospital patient. Third, and perhaps most important, we have seen in Return of the Jedi that deep down Vader still has good in him. There is a small part of Vader that doesn't want to win. He has no eye of the tiger. Obi-Wan has no such fault. Obi-Wan and the forces of good will be victorious.

BRIAN: First off, just because Obi trained Vader doesn't mean Vader skills haven't surpassed that of his teacher (realize that Michael Jordan had a high school basketball coach). Secondly, the only good we ever saw in Vader was when the end was near. When someone is close to death, they always act real sweet and tender. That's why grandparents are always so nice: they're trying to get into heaven. When these two warriors face off in Episode IV, Darth is far from the end and he is pure evil. He's got the eye of the tiger, alright. AND the burning heart!!

In closing I would like to take some wisdom from one of the greatest evil geniuses/leaders any of us have ever known. If we listen to the words of the immortal Dark Helmet, we all know who must win:

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb."

Another cool picture for your viewing pleasure:

Darth Vader vs. Obi-Wan Kenobi

The Results

Obi-Wan (229)

beats

Darth Vader (225)

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Voter Comments

Several Reasons why Obi Wan would win.

1. When Obi Wan came back as a spirit guy to talk to Luke, he looked just like Alec Guinness, normal ol' Ben. But Darth comes back at the end of the Ewok Jamborree in Jedi, Darth looks more like Dave Thomas, founder of Wendy's...in the spirit world, or in the real fictional world, a suave, sophisticate spirit like Alec would trash burgerboy.

2. All Ben would have to do is go find James Earl JOnes and kill him. He's not a big threat (and you know, I think the Star Wars movies would be a lit different if Mr. Earl Jones got in that Darth Vader suit...)

and finally, the most compelling reason...

3. You don't see Obi Wan Kenobi getting beaten by the damn Energizer Bunny, do you?

of course, if you figure Boba Fett into it...oh, never mind.

-CEckert

If winning means a physical death, then Darth romps Ben in a quick battle. First of all, Vader is not a medical nightmare, but a youthful bundle of cybernetics. Ben, on the other hand, is a senile old fruit who probably has an artificial hip. Secondly, Vader has first rate armor that takes a few hacks before a light saber can really do any damage. Ben's stuck wearing a loin cloth and pajamas. One swipe with Vader's light saber, and Ben ends up visiting Luke in his X-Wing. Also, who says that good has to win? In _Brazil_, good goes insane, but doesn't really win.

If winning means getting to Jedi heaven faster, then Ben wins. Now a battle in Jedi Purgatory would be something to behold. But that's a subject for another WWWF.

-John

Well, I gotta give the edge in this fight to Darth. True, he may have been Kenobi's student, but ben's spent the past few decades hiding in the Tatooine desert. Sure, he shows some good reflexes in the cantina against hapless walrus man, but walrus face wasn't expecting an attack from Kenobi, it was pure surprise. Darth has been busy hunting down Jedi and crushing imperial officers' wind pipes. He's kept his edge over the years. Also, if Kenobi could have killed Vader, why didn't he just do it? It really wasn't vital that he die. Without Vader as a strong man to back him up, the Emperor would have been quickly overthrown by his jealous underlings, giving the alliance a perfect oppurtunity to take down the empire. Kenobi knew he couldn't take Darth, and being the wily old man he was, he took the fall. Besides, the flashing lights from Vader's chest console would have been just too much for Ben to handle.

-Hassan.Ali.Hammy.Salammy.

Darth is a total badass. Of course, in Star Wars, we don't see all of it, but in Empire in particular, the dude ruled. Even Yoda woulda got his scrawny little ass kicked by Darth.

In Empire, Darth is simultaneously talking to one person while choking someone far away using only the Force. He fights Luke and is throwing things at him with his mind in the middle of a light saber battle.

Furthermore, Darth's got ATTITUDE! "You think you are being treated unfairly? ... Good. It would be unfortunate if I had to station a garrison of men here." Or "The deal has changed. PRAY I don't change it any more." And no one else could catch a laser blast with his hand and then pull the blaster to himself using just the Force.

Darth kicks Obi Wan's ass. No question. Even if Obi Wan were the superior at simple saber combat, Darth's physical prowess and ability to bring other objects into play will be far too much for Old Ben.

-Perry

No question, Darth takes it. Look at the physical basics to start. Darth's got that critical extra reach over Obi-Wan. The big guy's probably got 50 pounds on Kenobi also. He's got the height, reach, weight, you name it. His physical conditioning is superb for a guy who fell into a volcano. And look at Obi-wan, I mean really, how long has this guy been in a cave on the mental headset with Yoda? He's completely out of it!

Darth takes out Luke in nothing flat later on, and Luke is fresh off the Jedi fat farm. There's just no beating it, Darth all the way. Just look at the additional targeting and ranging equipment in his helmet... an undisputed advantage.

All in all, even given the 'good guy advantage' of Obi-Wan, it looks like Darth takes Obi-Wan in under 5 minutes. I call the death blow a head shot at 5-2 odds.

-Greg

Darth will win easy as he has much better dress sense then Obi Wan

-BBarrd

I was not able to reply in this week's Grudge Match (something about unable to access from my computer), anyway, I wanted to comment so I thought I could do it this way. Sorry, but I voted for Vader. I did not do so because Brian was arguing for him but because he "has the rage". I personally understand the power of the RAGE and know that it can not lose, therefore, I went with Vader.

-Susan

[This obviously comes from someone who knows absolutely nothing about rage. -Ed]

This is an interesting battle, since the rematch takes into account the fact that Obi-Wan will actually try to win this fight rather than be the big wuss he showed the world in the original Star Wars movie.

Since actual effort will be put into this fight, the battle is now a test of whether good will always triumph over evil when it comes to TV and movies.

My cash goes on Darth Vader. The student has more practice than the teacher, who had become little more than a high-priced "Jedi Consultant" in his later years. Proof of this is the fact that Luke Skywalker lost his hand while battling Vader, despite being trained by Kenobi. If some young buck loses a paw on Obi's advice, it won't be long before the "master" gets a light-saber enema.

Now if it were Vader versus Yoda... I'd go for the good guy/muppet. But Alec Guiness has put back a few too many pints of his namesake to be any kind of "force" in this fight. Good guys don't *always* win in movies and this is one of those cases. Vader will be standing over a smoking pile of Kenobi ashes within 5 minutes.

-HotBranch! _____________________________________________________________________________

Vader would demolish obi-wan, what a weenie name. It makes all the difference.

In history people with weenie names never win. Ming the merciless! ha, defeated by flash!

which btw is the same name of the dog from dukes of hazzard anyway VAder would crush him, besides the fact of the name. Vader has a much better costume!

-C MacLeod

Vader Vader Vader, Anyone who wears black can't lose! Vader is bigger, meaner, played by TWO actors with TWO agents demanding he not be killed. Obi-Wanker has only one hope, if he can reach out and push some of those buttons on Darthy's chest he might be able to turn off Vader's life support, but other than that, Obi-Old is just too much of a pathetic old fart to do serious lightsaber sculpture anymore. Why do you think he quit in the first place? Not only is he old, but a Quitter too?!

Darth would just call over three or four legions of stormtroopers to "assist" him if he had any trouble with that Brown Robed Has-been anyway.

-MIB

Movie icon, acting legend, and Grudge Match champion
Sir Alec Guinness passed away on August 5th, 2000.

If you liked this match, check out these other past matches:

Death Star v. Enterprise
Darth Maul v. Connor MacLeod
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