World Wide Web Fights presents
WWWF GRUDGE MATCH

The Setting

The downtown post office in Hartford, CT is buzzing with activity, just like every other weekday at 4:45 in the afternoon. Things are a little more hectic, however, as the workers are alive with gossip and anticipation. This is the day that the two leading candidates for the regional managers job, centered in Hartford, are coming in for interviews. They thought they were getting the Best of the Best (tm); little did they know that some other regional managers were lying through their teeth to get some flies out of their ointment.

At 4:46, a portly man, fresh off the bus from New York City walks into the building, a huge cheesesteak in one hand. A sinister grin comes across his lips. "Oh, yes! This will will work out perfectly!"

From the far side of the building enters the other candidate. He looks up from his reading, The Big Book of Skin (tm), and immediately begins admonishing one of the workers for improper metering techniques. "Hey, Buddy. Ya fahms all wrahng!"

The first man notices this through the crowd. He recognizes the man; he's heard the stories. He waddles over to him. "Hello, Clavin."

Cliff turns. "Hello, Newman." He too has heard stories. "What are you doing here."

"I think we both know why we're here, Clavin. And I'm afraid you're going to be going home quite disappointed."

"Well, we'll just see about that, won't we Newman."

So, Steve, which maligned mailman mangles the other and makes the move to management?

Cliff Clavin, Cheers Newman, Seinfeld

Cliff Clavin

vs.

Newman

The Commentary

STEVE: I'm going to have to go with Cliff on this one. First, there is the obvious Fitness Factor(tm). While I admit Cliff is not exactly the Jack LaLane Poster Boy, he's much better off than Newman. Newman is a pudgy beast, who is probably not able to walk as much as roll from place to place. His short, stubby arms are useless. And one hit to those coke-bottle glasses he wears will render him blind to Cliff's attacks. Newman is simply physically outmatched here.

Newman isn't just a loser as a postman. To see the true depth of Newman's loserness, we must also delve into his scary past. Yes, it was Newman who planned to steal dinosaur DNA in Jurassic Park. Of course, he screwed it up because he couldn't even drive a simple jeep. Yes, it was Newman who failed as a minor-league baseball lackey for Michael Jordan in Space Jam. Further research reveals he has also appeared in such travesties to the movie industry as V.I. Warshawsky and Dirty Dancing. Time and time again, we can see that Newman always has been a loser, and is destined to remain one for all his days.

Newman is not only physically outmatched, but also mentally outmatched. While Cliff may have some bizarre ideas, he is strong in his convictions. Newman however, is a weak-minded fool, easily swayed by other's ideas. Really, anyone who listens to Kramer's suggestions seriously and believes in them must have his sanity questioned. And even after they repeatedly fail, he still goes back for more. Cliff will simply apply the Jedi Mind-Trick(tm) he's been learning in his spare time to Newman. When Newman finally realizes what has happened, it'll be too late for him to transfer out of his new job as Apprentice Postage Stamp Re-licker.

BRIAN: How you can think that the idiot Clavin could ever take on Newman is beyond me. True, Newman is no rocket scientist, but as you remind us, he was a computer scientist once. How dumb is Clavin? Remember when he was in therapy, and his shrink would zap him everytime he was obnoxious? Then when Cliff had had enough, he grabbed the controller, yelled "Let's see how you like it, Doc!" and then almost fried himself. Moron. "Who are three people that have never been in my kitchen?" Dolt. "Don't worry, Frasier. Snipe run better in the snow!" What an ultra-maroon.

And let's face facts: Cliff can't handle pressure. Everytime a woman simply looks at him he starts to shake and slobber on himself. Kind of like a chihuahua. Newman, however, has served as a Postal Interrogator. "It gets pretty hot under these lights, doesn't it?" OK, so it wasn't hot, but he's still way ahead of Clavin.

Also, let's look at desire. Whoever wants this job more is going to get it. How bad does Newman want it? Badly, I assure you. Newman's obviously power hungry. Not only that, but a move to Hartford would free him from the hated Jerry. True, he'd be separated from his good friend Kramer as well, but it's only a matter of time until Kramer ends up in Hartford for some reason or another (possibly as the janitor of a UHF station). Cliff, OTOH, couldn't handle the move. Leave all his friends? Leave his mom? Leave the only place where everybody knows his name? He has no identity outside of Bahston.

Finally, Steve, let me commend you for doing something for the first time in our three plus years together: you almost made a good point. Cliff does have very strong convictions, even though he's usually way off base. But all it takes is the slightest amount of pain (e.g. a Half-Melvin (tm) from Carla) and he gives in. But that aside, he could attempt a Jedi Mind Trick (tm) on Newman. His appearance in The Empire Strikes Back (aka the Star Wars movie with no beginning or ending), which you forgot to point out, only bolsters that theory. Unfortunately for your point, though, Newman is very fat and very evil. This Jabba-like state makes him impervious to such attacks. Good effort, though, Steve.

STEVE: You think Newman really wants the job more than Cliff? Cliff is only the way he is because he's stuck in a rut with his go-nowhere job and over protective mother. Moving away and starting fresh is just what he needs, and he knows it. Without his history haunting him, before long he'll be Postmaster General. Newman doesn't have the same fire that Cliff has. Sure, the job would be nice for him, but it's really just as a step along his neverending tour of duty as a loser. No matter his position, he'll always be a scum sucking scoundrel.

And I know I'm not the only one out there who feels Clavin is the better pick. Just last night, I saw an ad on TV for the Pitney-Bowes Personal Postage Device-Thing-a-ma-jig(tm). And who was the spokesman? None other than Cliff Clavin. This ad shows his true depth of experience and ability. Cliff has now even mastered PC interfaces and CD-ROM technology. There's absolutely no stopping him! Shouldn't a postage device salesman be the obvious victor here? I think so.

And Brian, for the record, your repetitive insults and "holier-than-thou" attitude are becoming tiresome. Especially coming from someone who so obviously can't back them up.

BRIAN: Oooooooh. Big talk, especially coming from someone who would never have the guts to SEE if I can back them up.

Now back to the subject at hand. You have pulled off yet another first, Steve: never before have you made my points so clearly for me. Let's assume for a second that this does not come down to fisticuffs; easily envisioned considering there will be 5-10 desk clerks there with their Postal Issue AK-47s. This "Personal Post Office" (tm) you mention that Clavin is peddling is helping to put these same desk clerks out of jobs. Not to mention the bad name Cliff has given Postal employees over the years. How easy it would be for them to erase all of that pain? And say that they are able to control themselves and NOT kill Cliff Clavin (a stretch at best), and they merely prevent the fight with a spray of warning fire, much like turning a hose on two snarling dogs. Then it would come down to the actual interview. How good would this PPO thing look on Clavin's resume? And let's not forget the reprimand he received when Norm got busted delivering his mail. Or his embarrassing appearance in House II: The Second Story. Clavin would have no chance.

And the idea that Clavin is actually ambitious in anyway is laughable! Even if it were true, and Clavin did have aspirations of becoming Postmaster General, how, exactly, do you suggest that Cliff be able to depose the current PG, Wilford Brimley, aka The Old Guy That's In Every Other Movie Now (tm). Brimley showed in The Firm that's he's not above doing whatever is necessary to keep his position of power. And I don't think Clavin is quite as capable at survival as Tom Cruise with a good script.

Newman, however, has worked with Brimley in the past, and that will only give him an in. And if that wasn't enough, all he need to do is call in the luscious Sally Solomon; her alien wiles will turn Clavin to hapless jelly.

Thanks to the many people that suggested this match-up.
Special thanks to Doug Fowler (an attorney and aspiring author from Canton, OH) who was the first.

For Seinfeld and Cheers links, visit Sitcoms Online.

The Results

Cliff (1602)

stamps out

Newman (1330)

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Voter Comments

RESPONSE OF THE WEEK (ROTW) (TM)

Won't matter. NO ONE gets the promotion. Whichever man wins the battle will, as is usual for this kind of scenario, commit suicide before he can be taken into custody. Tomorrow's headline in the Hartford Daily News: "POSTAL EMPLOYEE KILLS FELLOW WORKER, SELF." However, the U.S. Postal Service will not pass up the opportunity, and will use the incident to justify raising the price of a first-class stamp to 37 cents.

- Deacon

ROTW (tm) Silver Medal Winner (tm)

Cliff Claven is a desperate man. His mother still does his laundry. His 'friends' at the bar haven't given him a single break since 1981 (in fact most all of them have moved on to other TV shows which have, in all but one case, failed like the Screaming Viking's taste test), he has I Love Vera tattooed on his butt by mistake, and the only record anyone has of him getting some nookie comes from that girl who almost married Sammie. His post-Cheers career has been so miserable (Toy Story not included) that [his resume] still has that time he played a driver in Gandhi. The only hope his life has of getting better (unless Win Ben Stein's Money has a Dorkier-Than-Usual Contestant week) is being presented to him right now, from his friends at the United States Post Office.

Newman, on the other hand, has a very rich life. True, it consists of eating Chunkies, fantasizing about butter-basted hipster doofuses and giving his neighbors fleas. But it's a life, and one that provides interaction with a nemisis at least six times a year (as per his contract). He doesn't view the United States Post Office with the utter reverence that Cliff does, as seen in his willingness to ferry soda cans to Michigan in an official vehicle just for the 10 cent returns. He's so with it he doesn't even have a first name. His hope rests with Kramer, who while not the most reliable person in the world, certainly puts Newman to work, sometimes even as cohost of a garbaged talk show.

Cliff's show is in syndacation around 12:30 at the earliest, because it's been bumped there by Seinfeld (and in some cases, his former buddy Frasier). Newman's sitting pretty at 11:00 on just about every UPN and WB affiliate.

Cliff's from Boston, and correspondingly has all the luck of the Red Sox. Much like Babe Ruth moving a few miles south, the on/off switch for Boston will be toggled if Cliff finds a nice two-bedroom number in Hartford for himself and Mother Claven. Those who knew Cliff knew he was a loser, but he was secretly the one dragging the whole city down.

Newman's from New York, which received Babe Ruth all those years ago. He still has the luck of Spinal Tap drummers, but at least the Yankees have seen one of those funny looking trophies since the Harding Administration. If he leaves, the collective karma in Manhattan would raise an eensy bit. And Jerry would wet his pants with joy.

The job's Cliff's.

- Kilgore Trout

ROTW (tm) Bronze Medal Winner (tm)

It really isn't a matter of who is the most competent supervisor. Post Office supervisors have only two purposes in life: (1) to enforce the evil postal policies of the upper bureaucracy by using tactics that would offend an Egyptian slave driver at a pyramids project and (2) to act as a human shield for the aforementioned bureaucracy when those tactics cause some borderline nutcase to take out his frustrations at the most obvious and deserving target. These are the traits that are necessary for this job.

Cliff is annoying but he isn't evil. It is also unlikely that shooting him would shut him up so he doesn't fulfill either qualification. Newman on the other hand is (1) very evil, (2) the biggest, slowest, most deserving target in the entire postal system and (3) stupid enough to accept the job knowing qualification #2. Obviously, he will be hired. Cliff is here only because government regulations require more than one applicant for every job opening.

Predictably, Newman is gunned down within two weeks and Kramer gives his friend a "Let's Dance on Newman's Grave" funeral party. The entire postal bureaucracy retires, apparently cashing in on some sort of secret multi-million dollar insurance policy. With no else qualified, Cliff is promoted to Postmaster General and immediately releases an limited edition series of stamps on historical events that never took place, people who never lived and inventions that never existed.

- Paul G. of the STGF(tm)

I have to go with Newman on this one. Cliff is a born loser, and doesn't have the craftiness necessary to pull off that type of power play. Newman, on the oter hand, is devious, kiniving, and basically evil at heart. We have never witnessed him performing a redemptive act to indicate otehrwise. Cliff's scruples will be his downfall (remember how he caved after he told the lie about the hijacked postal vehicle?) He will be busy planning his honest assention to the top of the postal ranks, while Newman will have already sealed the deal by promising his superior officer a date with Elaine (whom he will have already secured through blackmail of some sort). There will be no way that any postman could resist this temptation. Game, set, and match - Newman. He will eventually rise in a Hitler-type fashion to become the evil, all-powerful despot of the postal system. Let the tyranny begin!

- Dave Bernardi

THE ARMIES OF PRIVATIZATION ARE ON THE MARCH. How on earth could you boys forget the lessons of the past year? With their UPS Strike, the Teamsters singlehandedly brought the nation to a screeching halt. Stores ran out of stock, hospitals were short on supplies, mail-order companies went down the tubes, the teamsters did it all without using their mob ties. Truely this is a force to be reckoned with. All postal workers will set aside their petty bickering when faced with this threat.

In the way of them stand two sad little men: one alcoholic, yammering footschlagger of the zip code and one fat, scheming delivery boy. What hope does this pathetic pair have against the Teamsters and their friends, the Legitimate Businessmen?[TM]

Very simple, of course: the CIA. You see, being a government agency, the post office is easily controlled by the CIA, who opens and reads all your mail. This way the CIA can keep track of all the members of all the subversive groups in America: the Communist Party, The Hair Club for Men, BMG Music Service. To get information from UPS, FedEx or the other private firms, a huge program of infiltration is required. So the CIA wants the post office prosperous and wide-spread.

So it comes down to the Teamster's mob ties versus the Post Office's friends in the CIA. Who wins? Only the Illuminati know. However, we can be sure thousands, if not millions, of innocents will die in the crossfire.

So, the moral: keep Cliff in the bar at all times.

--Rosencrantz

Well guys, this was a tough one. At first. But then a couple of factors came to mind which will clinch this Melee of the Maligned Mailmen for Newman.

1) I don't know if you remember, but there was a Cheers episode in which Cliff got so upset with his good buddy Norm (a definite Newman look-alike, possible long-lost brother or something) that it came to blows. Sorta. You see, Cliff didn't want to get hurt, so he began setting down guidelines for the fight (ie, no punching in the face, etc). Eventually the two pissed pugilists sat down to record their complex list of rules and wound up talking out there problems and making up. How lame. This will not help him in a fight with Newman, an equal-sized porker as Norm, but with more desire than Norm. After all, Norm was just upset with Cliff, but Newman wants that position, to squash the lackeys under his (quite heavy) heel.

2) The BABE (tm) factor. This is the most glaring advantage Newman has over Cliff. Cliff sits around all day in Cheers, surrounded by the likes of Dr. Lilith Crane (who is actually rather attractive when that hair is let down), Carla (she bumps uglies with Danny DeVito, for Christ's sake; she is the Devil incarnate), Rebecca Howe (who has continued to get uglier and uglier; the years have not been kind) and Diane Chambers (although strangely attractive, she was way too much of a prude to tease Cliff). Cliff is not used to being surrounded by a woman who looks like Seinfeld's Elaine.

By some obscure fate of odd luck, the whole Seinfeld crew has turned up today in Hartford. Kramer never got to say goodbye to his good buddy. With a flourish and wacky flailing motion of arms and legs, Kramer bursts into the post office, followed by George, Jerry and his "Hello, Newman", and finally Elaine. Cliff, who is busy spewing out more and more rules for the match ("you can't pretend to slip and then punch me in the groin" or "I have a bad shoulder from that bag, so no punches to this side), stops to watch this odd spectacle, and is smitten speechless by Elaine. In his shock and fear of being in the presence of such a beautiful vision, he runs and hides in a bathroom stall as fast as his skinny legs can carry him. After some zany antics, Newman is the only one who shows up for the interview (since Cliff is catatonically rocking back and forth sucking his thumb in the men's restroom) and wins by default.

- Adam B.

Neither wind, sleet, snow nor hail will keep Newman from winning in this perplexing postal pandemonium. Cliff Clavin is just some dorky barfly who lives with his mom. Newman has the one advantage that is needed to attain victory in all matters postal: EVIL!!!!!

Newman is a blob of pure evil, waiting to suck your soul into a vortex of sin and degradation. He endangered Jerry's life for a year's worth of free haircuts. He's a known sympathizer of the Soup Nazi (tm). He tried to illicitly take over the world when playing Risk with Cosmo. And yes, he's a strong cider kind of guy. Cliff can't keep up with that level of evil; he and his Cheers ilk can't even win against the mild John Allen Hill, or rival bar owner Gary, of Olde Towne Tavern fame.

Sadly, the world is not a perfect place. Supreme powerful evil, such as that exhibited by Newman will fit right in with the post office's mandate of making one wait in line endlessly, lick foul stamp glue, etc. Then Newman can take his rightful place in hell in the World Evil Counsel (WEC) alongside Caligula, Richard Nixon, Genghis Khan, and Walt Disney. Hello...................Newman.

- 1/2 Nelson

Another little known fact about Cliff Claven was his appearance in the bizarrely worthless film known as `Lords of Atlantis'. In it, he assisted in battling large land moving turtles, and people in stupid outfits with bad wigs and ESP. His triumph over these rejects from a Tick episode more than give him the capability of battling a monster known as Newman. Jabba-like and fat though he may be, Newman's got nothin' on giant spiky turtles that throw fireballs. Sure, he's fat, and he possibly has a nasty BO problem, but I think that Clavin has a few tricks in that big mom-purse type mail bag he always leaves on the bar in cheers.

- The Notorious J.E.N.

I'm afraid two dominant factors hold sway here.
1. The Heroic Virgin Vacuum
2. The Eye of the Tiger Principle (tm)

With the exception of Luke Skywalker and Ben Hur, there have been very few battle worthy virgins. In a contest requiring the least amount of machismo, the contestant with a carnal knowledge of a female will almost always be the victor. While Clavin had imagined 'doing it' with many girls, by his own admission he was a cherry. Newman, however hard it is to believe, was rather serious with a girl that Jerry later dated. What's more, Newman dumped the chic even though she was pretty hot. As the match de velops, Newman, secure in his potency, will clearly have the advantage.

Second, have you seen the looks Newman gives to Jerry during their confrontations? While I admit it wouldn't scare Mr. T, it would be more than enough to make Cliff blink. Cliff has shown time and time again that he's all talk and no walk. One of those looks would make Cliff piss all over his little blue uniform

- Borris had a flying squirrel and let it go

Steve, Steve, Steve... how can you forget the wussiness of Cliff Clavin is beyond me. If you recall in "Superman", Clavin was then in the military and was part of the missile team that almost blew up Hackensack, NJ. His job was to push the red auto-destruct button. He couldn't even get the missiles to self-destruct! No wonder he was busted from the military service to the postal service. Newman has THE RAGE (tm) - everyone can see it seething beneath the corpulent rolls of baklava and not-so-fat-free ice cream. Further, as sumo wrestlers showed me during the Winter Olympics, fat guys stomping around frightens away evil spirits. If it frightens away evil spirits, think of how it'll affect Clavin! Newman will make Cliff piss in his pants! It looks to me as if Clavin will be demoted from postal service to some full-service gas station attendant. Think about it - Goober, Gomer, Clavin. ("You know, these cars require a special gas additive made from the rubber trees of Berkina Faso.") Newman is destined to rise up the ranks of the USPS, read the magazines wrapped in black plastic, oogle the union shop steward, lose truckloads of mail in the Hartford Bus Depot, and pound Cliffie into a whimpering mass of mother-loving loserhood. Now, if Clavin wanted to go head-to-head against Mr. Spock in Trivial Pursuit... mmmmaybe he'd have a chance. Fisticuffs against Newman? HA-HA! NEVER!!!!

- slimpickins

Newman...easy.

Jerry himself picked Newman to arbitrate the great Bicycle/neck adjustment debate (tm) due to the fact that he needed someone who was without feeling, no loyalties, etc. Even without that, we know how ruthless and devious he can be...this after all was the man who organized the kidnapping of a dog outside Elaine's apartment--just for barkin' too loud!! (which makes me wonder if he's related to that bad ass in the Time Life Western Books from the 70's...but I digress)

I think Clavin's level of deviousness is actually in the negative column, as most of his knowledge is trivia to begin with, and 90% wrong...so unless he has something hidden in that potato that looks like Nixon, Newman will take him down, and have a beer charged to either Clavin's or Norm's tab, through some convoluted scheme ONLY Newman would be sick enough to try.

- The Drake (love me or hate me, I am STILL the Drake)

Are you kidding me? You've come up with some pretty one-sided fights before, but this is pathetic! Cliff is the hands-down winner. Come, children, gather round as I tell you why.

First, let's say the match gets physical, as these WWWF deals tend to; Newman always dies. Always. In everything he's in involving a fight, he's toast. The only reason he didn't die in Space Jam is that it was a cartoon. Cliff, meanwhile, has been in the Rebel army, fighting in the trenches of Hoth. Pretty rough stuff, and we know war vets can kick anybody's butt. But wait! I must add, since it was mentioned earlier, that in his appearance in House II, not only was he the only cool character in the movie aside from the evil dead cowboy, but he proved his amazing prowess with a sword, fending off Aztecs. Aztecs, I tell you!

And, assuming that this remains a battle of knowledge (as it should), who knows more about postal guidelines than Cliff Claven, who does nothing all day but study them? The man never even takes off his uniform! Newman, meanwhile, wears silly Hawaiian shirts or small-town police dept. uniforms on his days off. And it's been proven again and again what a crappy mailman Newman is. Even Jerry Seinfeld was better!

In short, gentlemen, there is only one choice -- the Cliff choice.

- The Sinister-in-a-non-postal-way Helicopter

LISTEN TO YOUR MOTHER !!!! Cliff just like Mr. Rogers has one real power; "his monotone, expressionless, hypnotic voice could bring a roomfull of toddlers to their knees in 30 seconds flat"[1] let alone a fat guy getting ready to go postal. To win this one all Cliff has to do is start talking and Newman is down for the count!

[1] "Mom" in Captain v. Rogers

- Dad (tm)

Let's face facts: they are both monumental losers. Even a brief look into their lives will, however, show who the victor will clearly be�

Yes, Newman loses at almost everything he tries, but he shows the perseverance to continue the fight. If you will remember, Steve, Newman is also The Great White Whale of New York (TM) ; his long-standing evasion and flagrant violation of traffic law shows determination, and a desperate perseverance- he will keep going no matter what. His clever cross-state recycling scheme with Kramer shows his ability to manipulate the system, and the passion to fight for his goals in the face of all reason and good hygiene, key skills for moving up in the Postal Service. It also shows his ability to drink enough soda to kill a moose, but that is a story for another time. If nothing else, his desire to get away from Jerry will inspire him to win the day- and Jerry would probably help him to achieve his goal.

Clavin, on the other hand, is a middle-aged Mamma's Boy who apparently has already donated his spine to science. He couldn't handle the move to Hartford- just the thought of leaving the protective wing of his Dear Ole Ma will take the fight out of him. Add to that the fact that he doesn't have the common sense that God gave paint, and Newman is the sure winner.

I'm sorry Steve, but it is time to go back on the chewable prozac. We have two flavors: Manic Depressive Mouse and the Blue Bird of Unhappiness.

- Rochambeau

Cliff ALWAYS ran from an enraged Norm, and who looks more like Norm than Newman? This exemplifies Cliff's Fatophobia (TM), making him run, screaming like a girl, from Newman's obesity.

Newman in the time it takes Cliff to explain, well, anything.

- The Knowledge Guru.

Pathetic fools!! In the past I have been far too awestruck by your uncanny insights to ever consider myself worthy of providing a comment. (Who could add anything to your timeless analysis of the pine cone factor in the A-team vs. Mcguyver? Brilliant!) This one though is so simple, you should be ashamed. As we all know Cliff, like Kramer is an inventive yet incompetent liar. Fortunately for Cliff, Neuman will believe anything (as most episodes of Seinfeld demonstrate.) Remember when Cliff claimed to be a Kung Fu master when challenged to a fight by a much bigger opponent? He claimed it would be illegal, and immoral to uses his hands (registered weapons naturally,) against an untrained opponent. He even broke boards and bricks to demonstrate this, causing his opponent to flee in panic over his (imaginary) martial skills. Three sentences into his lie Cliff will have Neuman quivering in fear like so much Jello. There is no way Neuman could prevail against a stud like that!

- Braniac

All of Newman's plans go awry because of Jerry, one way or the other. At the same time this incident happens, Jerry will be on his American tour, stopping in Hartford. He'll crack a few jokes about "what's up with the Hartford Whalers going to Carolina? ", try to get some fan mail from the post office, find Newman there, gets into an argument with him, giving Claven the chance to pull off a sneak attack and leaving Newman lying in his wake.

- Old Lady Crow

If Neuman brought out Sally to boggle Cliff's mind, good old Sammy would have her seduced and in the sack before you could say "Mulva".And if things got really down and dirty,who better to back you up than Woody 'Natural Born Killer' Boyd? Hands down,Cliff takes the job.

- Paul Cameron

Intimidation is key. In order to keep the violence-prone postal employees in line, the manager must be capable of threatening his workers. Who is most capable of doing this? Newman, of course.

Newman has always been the equal of his most determined foes. The mere mention of his name, nay the near thought of him, has always elicited a growl of "Newman!" from his adversary. (One is reminded of Capt. Kirk screaming "Khan!") He is recognized as a worthy adversary -- one to be feared, in fact. And he has used intimidation before evidenced by the fact that he once possessed David Berkowitz's mail bag! How did he get it? I can guarantee you it was not by saying "pretty please". If he can intimidate Son of Sam, one of the great mass murderers of our time, he can certainly handle Cliff Clavin.

It is impossible to believe that Cliff would be a threat to anyone. (A glance from Carla can send him skittering away in panic.) And he cannot count on help from anyone. (Newman in contrast, will have the full support of even his most bitter adversary, as I will show below). The last thing Sam and friends would want to see is their favorite foil following ambition or success to a new location. He would be too afraid to leave his mother's skirts or the extended family he has at Cheers. They are his safety net. Without it, he's lost. Lost.

Newman will have the full support of Jerry and his friends. Indeed, when he was up for a transfer to Hawaii, Jerry in fact worked in his behalf (in order to get him to move out of New York. He only made the mistake of doing too good of a job (by delivering more than 80% of the mail on Newman's route -- an unprecedented accomplishment for any mailman!) It is a mistake that they won't make again.

Clavin, on the other hand, has never been seen with a letter in his hand. In fact, the mail is delivered to the bar by a different mailman. If Cheers is not on his route, then why is Cliff always there? Obviously, he is slacking. Maybe he doesn't even work for the USPS! Cliff is the type to wear the uniform for show without actually being a mailman.

Let's discuss their former roles, too. While Newman WAS killed in Jurassic Park, it was a vicious carnivorous dinosaur which did him in (after blinding and distracting him). There is no shame in that! Clavin's most memorable role (outside of Cheers) was as a piggy bank in Toy Story. Let's face it, the first time Andy wants an ice cream, Piggy will be busted into a few dozen pieces for the few pennies jingling inside.

I hope these arguments are convincing enough. As Newman rises to the top, just keep Cliff out of his way, for Clavin's own safety!

- Sonny Wareham

Having viewed a considerable number of episodes of both Seinfeld and Cheers, I am forced to conclude there is no way these two are going to fight. In the proud tradition of the British and German navies during the First World War, both Newman and Claven will doubtlessly circle around each other and make threats, but both are two gutless to actually risk a real fight. As such, the question than becomes who is the most likely to back down when faced with bluster and outrageous boasting, and that has to be Claven.

Lets look at some of his history. Not only did Claven let himself get cheated out of his rightful Jeopardy win, not only did he let himself get hauled off by Johnny Carson's goon squad, but he couldn't even manage to get Adolph Hitler evicted from his apartment. And this is the man that wants to take on Newman?

Newman worked right alongside David Berkowitz, the greatest serial killer the Post Office ever produced, he must have picked up something from him about how to intimidate opponents. Newman may not be able to walk the walk, but he can talk the talk and that is all that is going to be needed to defeat Cliff Claven.

There is one more factor that has to be considered, that guarantees a win for Newman. Newman is from New York City, Claven is from Boston, and while New York may be filled with obnoxious jerks, at least it isn't part of the big government, tax and spend, rather hug a tree than lock up the homeless state known as Massachusetts. Massachusetts is the France of the United States, and as such by definition it and all its citizens must lose at everything they attempt to do.

- Brendan W. Guy

Newman, as is shown by his appearence in "Jurassic Park" as well as his returnable bottle and dog-kidnapping schemes on "Seinfeld", is a criminal mastermind. "So what?", you may ask. "He, like all other criminal masterminds, always loses.

Aha! Therein lies the crux of the matter. The villain always loses -- TO THE HERO. Cliff Clavin is no superhero. He's a sidekick all the way. And we all know what happens to sidekicks: their heads end up on pikes as a warning to others. Sam Malone will take an interstate trip and avenge Cliff's death, but make no mistake: this battle is Newman's to lose. We even see evidence of this on "Seinfeld", where Newman will sometimes pull one over on George but never on Jerry.

Newman in six and a half mintues, and he only takes that long because Newman gets winded so easily.

- The Ludic Kid

Brian, You are right in what happened next but SO wrong in the result. Just before Newman is going to try and nail Cliff with the cheesesteak, he takes a good look at the waiting-to-go-postal workers and sees the AK-47s aimed at him. Newman smiles and backs off.

So, the interview commences. The first and only question asked is this, "Show me your weaponry!" Unknown to the general public, the last 10 regional managers wasn't fired or downsided, they were relocated (to the grave) by a peeved Postie! Hence, the manager wants to see if they can protect themselves against the most dangerous unionized workers in the free world.

Newman is first. He doesn't have the trademark AK-47 because he sold it to a pawn shop in order to try McDonald newest sensation, the BIG BIG Mac (Extra Bun, Cheese, Tomato and Heartburn). Newman, being the nerd he is, asked Kramer to help him out. So, Kramer forges around and finds a beautiful antique Bayonet for Newman. Once Newman shows the manager the bayonet, the manager laughs and sends him to the company cafeteria. 10000 rounds later, the manager calls the funeral home to remove Newman's bullet-riddled body.

Cliff is next. He doesn't have the trademark AK-47 due to him selling it to help paid off Norm's bar tab (Norm tricked Cliff to pay the tab (That was another story..), hence him leaving Beantown for Hartford). Now, Cliff asked his Cheers' buddies to help him out. They felt sorry for Cliff so they went out and got the following.

Woody - went back home and got his double-barrel shotgun.
Sam - went and slept with the local police officer. Hello, Silencer.
Rebecca - Being the businesswoman she is, went to the pawn shop and got the AK-47 back.
Frasier - He was the one who got Cliff the interview.
Norm - Moral encouragement. You think that he would know how to get a gun??

So, it's a silencer, Double-barrelled shotgun and the AK-47. Surely, that's enough to keep the posties quiet. But one question remains....

"What did Carla get for Cliff???"

Let's just say that after the manager saw Carla's little gift for Cliff, he gave Cliff HIS job.

- Little Mac

An interviewer steps out into the hall and gets the two men's attention.

"All right, before we begin the interview I should let you know that we will be asking you both the same questions. You will be interviewed individually in the room across the hall and a panel of four will be using your answers to select the best candida te for the job. Remember that this is a post office -- competency is not an issue. Mr. Claven, you will be first."

Seated before the panel, Cliff is visibly sweating as the interview begins.

"First, what is the most important duty you have been assigned?"
"That would be when I was given a nuclear bomb and asked to blow up Burt Lancaster before he started WWIII."
"Impressive. What happened?"
"While rapelling down the elevator shaft my belt became loose and accidentally hit the silo door. Burt Lancaster somehow managed to hear this and I was forced to abandon the bomb."
"And what was the outcome of this?"
"Snipers shot the U.S. President as well as Burt Lancaster."
"And what did you learn form the experience?"
"Always check your equipment and always hire good snipers."
"Thank you, and you may go now."

In the halway the interviewer steps out again. "And now we are ready for you Mr. . . . Newman. Is that your first name or your last name?"
"Yes."
"Fine, come this way then and we will begin the interview."
Newman is suprisingly calm, but an observant person might notice he is on the edge of cracking.
"First, what is the most important duty you have been assigned?"
"I was asked to interrogate Sharon Stone in connection with a murder."
"What happened?"
"During the interview she opened her legs while wearing a short skirt."
"And what was the outcome of this?"
"You have to ask?"
"And what did you learn form the experience?"
"Always have a camera nearby during interrogations."
"Thank you, and you may go now."

As Newman leaves the room the interviewers discuss the prospects. "Well, Mr. Clavin seems to have been given much greater responsibility in the past."

"True, but remember, he failed. Newman has demonstrated an ability to hold up under pressure."

"Please, the only person under pressure there was Sharon Stone. Mr. Clavin's failure is irrelevant, even if the president did die. After all, we are a government agency. Could you imagine what would happen if we gave out promotions based on successfuln ess?"

"Good point. I agree, Mr. Clavin is the man for the job."

- Warren Von

(As the two begin to square off, they simultaneously incur "injuries.")

Cliff and Newman: My knee! My trick knee!
Newman: You know, I�d like to fight you, but my knee just can�t take it.
Cliff: Ah, I�ll let ya off this time. But I won�t be so generous next time.
Newman: So how are we going to settle this?
Carla: Why don�t you losers see which one has stashed the most undelivered mail?
Newman: Who�s the gutsy dame?
Cliff: That�s Carla. She wants me, but my standards are too high.
Carla: No, your socks are too high. They�re stinking up your memory.
Jerry: C�mon, Newman, let�s see how many letters you stashed.
Newman: OKAY! We�ll meet back here in two hours. Bring all your stashed mail!
Cliff: You�re on!

(2 hours and several U-Hauls later: )

Da Judge: Okay, it�s all even. Newman has 12.7 tons of undelivered mail, and Clavin has 12.7 tons of undelivered mail. It�s a tie.
Newman: Wait! I have one more.
(Newman grins, reaches into his bag and puts a box on the scale.)
Da Judge: Looks like Newman wins.
Newman: I win! Ha ha ha haaa!
Cliff: Aw, it was rigged. You only won because of that box. What�s in it anyway?
Newman: Jealous?
Carla: Let�s go! Open it up! What�s in it?
Sam: Hey, is it legal to just open up someone�s mail like that?
Jerry: Yeah, like it�s legal to stash it for years on end? C�mon, Newman, open the box!
(Newman sheepishly reaches over, picks up the box and hands it to Kramer to open.)
Newman: I can�t watch.
Kramer: Hey, George. It�s addressed to you!
George: Figures! The winning piece of mail, and it�s addressed to me, but I win NOTHING! NOTHING!
(Kramer opens the box and pulls out a rather large goofy-lookin� article of clothing.)
Carla: What the hell is that?
Sam: I don�t know.
Jerry: I don�t believe it!
George: THE CHICKEN SUIT!!!

- Mark Wentz

Delving deeper into Cliff's past, we discover the martial prowess which will assure him victory:

General Joe Brodsky in Timescape; Mr. Barnett in Combat Academy; Chief Peck in Firefox; Rusty in Battletruck; Controller in Superman

Say those out loud and notice the recurring theme: "General", "Combat", "Chief", "Battle", "Controller"

Now read out Newman's sorry past:

'Piccolo' Pete Dugan in Dead Again; Ed Grant in To Die For; Leo Cunningham in Fallen Angels

"Dead", "Die", "Fallen". Your confidence drains away before the last despondent syllable escapes your lips, much as Newman's last gasp before he lapses into oblivion.

"Elaynnnnn....."

- John Hunter

At first glance this would seem to be a close match. While Cliff knows everything (even Carla was forced to admit that he was a walking encyclopaedia), Newman has (presumably) incredible knowlege of strategy, from hours of playing Risk with Kramer. Furthermore, although he did mess everything up in the end, he DID manage to steal DNA in a shaving cream can from a highly guarded research laboratory.

The reason Newman will fail is that, while he understands strategy from Risk, he fails to grasp other important aspects of military operation. It is said that ameteurs discuss tactics, dilletantes discuss strategy, and experts discuss logistics. Who best understands logistics? One might think Newman would, as he obviously has managed to divert plenty of foodstuffs in his general direction, but it is Cliff who (in his spare time) parks himself near the source of what the German monks at Munich called "liquid bread" -- Beer.

Furthermore, as we have seen, Newman does not understand interpersonal relations. When playing Risk, he (and Kramer too) manage to lose because they offend a Ukrainian on the subway, and he smashes their board. Cliff, on the other hand, is not only a walking encyclopaedia, but a talking encyclopaedia as well. Consequently, he will be able to regale the interviewer with long and interesting stories, while Newman will only offend the interviewer further the longer he talks with him.

Even if it comes down to a physical fight, Cliff will be able to out-run the massive Newman, who will be forced to pursue, and probably die of a heart attack in the process.

Cliff Clavin will be our next post-master general within five years, and then succesfully conquer Cuba by properly redirecting the anger of every disgruntled postal worker in the country.

- Field Marshall J A "Dusty" Sayers, O.St.D. http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/netrtp/

ultimately, the manager decides who will work for him. let's see, newman is slothful and unmotivated, but devious. clavin lives for the post office, but is an incompetant idiot. its a no brainer. I used to be responsible for supervising union employees for a large multinational corporation that makes lightbulbs and aircraft engines. based on that experience, I can tell you that the answer is completely obvious. if you are a manager, you know that promoting clavin will only result in your baby-sitting him night and day. if you promote newman, you may have to watch you back, but you would anyway if you didn't promote him. at least his department will probably run smoothly until the shooting spree, at which time all of the witnesses to his sadism will be dead, and you will have plausible deniability. besides, it's kind of useful to have a few guys like that in your stable as you move up the corporate ladder. you never know when you might need to have you rival's car filled with fresh squid. newman would give you a valuable tool for when you are seeking a promotion -- fear.

here is a bit of advice for anyone trying to be a manager in a dysfunctional system: sloth over incompetence every time.

- jeff

True, Cliff can't use Jedi mind-control techniques on Newman, but he doesn't have to. As the personnel manager sticks his head out the door, one subtle mental tweak and he'll have no choice but to bring Cliff in first.

That's all Cliff needs. His encyclopedic knowledge of postal regulations, plus an extended lecture on workplace reforms he saw on his Florida vacation, will glaze the interviewer's eyes more effectively than The Force(tm, Lucasfilm Ltd.) ever could.

Cliff swaggers out of the office. "Eh, no need to go in there, my man New-man. Position's filled, but maybe you can get something behind the cahnter."

Newman bellows with inhuman rage, but before he can commit mayhem upon Cliff or anyone else, he is cut down by a fusillade of semi-automatic fire. That threat to the peace and quiet of their work environment quelled, the postal employees settle back into their jobs, even singing as they work, with a reggae beat.

"I shot the postmaaaaan ... but I swear it was in self-defense ..."

- Call me Shane

The weight factor definetly has to come into play. You just can't hurt a man as large as Neuman. Much like the famed "Butterbean", Neuman can take a good hit and absorb much of the impact. And on offense, no matter how strong or weak he may be, catching an arm with that much weight attatched to it has to hurt alot, never mind the fact that Cliff cries if he gets bruised.

- S-HCM

In the tradition known only to bad guys in action movies, LA gangs, and postal workers, Cliff and Newman each whip out semi-automatic weapons. Newman quickly waddles for cover behind a stack of leftover christmas presents that never got mailed, and Cliff bounces (literally) behind the desk clerk who has been there three days. They both fire off a burst of ammo.

Over the cries of Mama! Mama! from some six year old girl's gift from her grandmother, Cliff hears Newman's feeble cry. Yes, the fat slob has taken one in the shoulder. Newman howls in pain and curses up a storm. Cliff, feeling triumphant, sits down behind the counter and waits for Tubby to die of blood loss.

A moment later, Cliff's ears perk up and the sound of Miller on tap. Yes, Newman unleashes his secret weapon. He laughs maniacally as he fills a clear beer mug full of rich Miller, tipping it ever so slightly as to get more beer and less head. Cliff's head slowly peaks up over the counter and he sees it - his treasure. He can't resist, now, not after being stuck in that loser bar for years and years and years with his drinking buddies. Oh, no! He's getting flashbacks. He reaches out to take the frosty brew and...

BLAM BLAM BLAM!!! - Jerry's worst nightmare, Newman is regional manager at the US Post Office.

- Some Dork

Newman shall be the victor. Why? It is a matter of Good versus Evil. In my childhood (which i see as extending to thirty years beyond my current age), when i pull out my Transformers (TM), the line that divides victory from defeat is painfully clear. Decepticons can change into jets, hovercraft, bats, dinosaurs, dragons, and insects. Autobots can change into...cars. Except for the Dinobots, but they are chaotic and brainless.

Now, i can't say that Newman is as cool as Scorponok (who happens to be a triple-changer headmaster), but Cliffie has traversed far beyond the acceptable line of wussie goodness. Cliff Claven is a dumbass. Newman is a master of malice. No contest.

- Telperion

In the battle of clueless vs. evil, I've got to back evil on this one. Besides, it's an interview. Who would be more likely to lie on his resume? Neuman of course, perhaps with help from the Prince of Lies himself, George. He'd probably write himself a ll sorts of postal awards, and say he was a champion doberman wrestler to boot. And do you really think, given the number of psychotics the Post Office hires, that they actually check out the resumes? I think not.

Besides, any interviewer would see that while Cliff is essentially a decent guy with a genuine passion for his work, his long, pointless stories filled with obvious factual errors would doubtless turn off any supervisor ("I've got to listen to this crap e very day? Oy!"). Neuman, on the other hand, is a suck-up supreme, craven and cringing, a super-toadie who would be an obvious asset to any manager.

And as for actual qualifications, Neuman is obviously the better manager, determined to rule by fear, whereas Cliff's easy going nature would turn the post office into undisciplined chaos inside a week.

- The Wump of Gump

In a contest between two losers - who can win?

I have to give it to Newman. Yes, he's lost some (in Jurassic Park and other flics) - but you forget he's also won some, scoring prime alien ass in 3rd Rock and mackin' hot chics on the 1-800-whatchamacallit commercials. Clavin has NEVER won anything. The closest he ever got to winning was the 2 and a half minutes the Cheers gang thought they had beaten Gary.

Whether this be a physical battle or an just "ordinary" interviews, Newman will dominate.

In hand to hand combat, The massive Newman overpowers the puny Clavin. Like Gorilla Monsoon says, a good big man will always beat a good little man. And if they call in back-up, I'll bet on the gang from 3rd Rock and/or Seinfeld over the losers at Cheers (Carla's kids excluded) anyday.

Of course, Brains Beats Brawn. Unfortunately for Cliff, Newman wins in the smarts category too. Newman is a Evil Mastermind (tm), always scheming. Sure, Cliff is a trivia buff, but this ain't Jeopardy.

Evil Mastermind (tm) pretty much says it all. Newman can't lose. In an interview setting Newman is slick. He knows how to get what he wants. He's a player. Clavin is a buffoon. And if the interviewer just happens to be a beautiful woman, then Clavin's vocabulary will retard to "Uhhhh" and "Maaaa."

Newman has Motive. He's always looking for the BBD. A management position means More Sitting and Less Walking. It also means more green. And more green means more Drakes Coffee Cakes (Full Size). Clavin is 100% pure MAILMAN. He delivers mail. Nuff Said. Game Over.

- The Grey Man

Dearest Ma,

You'll be glad to know that I have settled in to my new job, here in Hartford. The decision on who got the job had been narrowed down to myself and Newman, that guy from New York I told you about.

When I got to the Post Office for the interview, Newman was casing the place while eating in uniform--a clear violation of regulation 34.17b, paragraph 3. He was mouthing off about how he was going to get the job over me, so I made him put his money where his mouth was.

This Newman fella is bigger than I expected and he was hard to get a grip on because he was so sweaty and greasy. The fight reminded me of the wrastling match I had with Norm a few years ago. I was trying to slip out of a Father Nelson hold, when I slipped on Newman's half eaten sandwich.

My slip allowed Newman to apply the Pretzel hold on me. It looked like I was a goner, Ma, but I looked deep into my heart as a US Post Office employee and, from my twisted position, I saw an opportunity to win the fight. I decided to bite Newman in the crotch. The resulting scream shattered the windows and made us both jump five feet in the air.

When Newman landed on the floor, I pinned him and was declared the winner. I never knew how strong I could be, until that moment, when I bit myself in the balls.

Your loving son,

Clifford

- HotBranch!

Quite a twisty match...Cliffy's taking a pounding from the fatman (hell, Cliff couldn't write a good gag for the Tonight Show--"You botched my joke Johnny Carson!"), and just when it looks like he's down for the count, Frances Sternhagen shows up, prepared to defend her disappointing son to the death. But the wily Newman turns on the charm and, much as he did with Kramer's mother, ensnares her in his insidious web o' love (TM). Newman in a close one.

- The Magnificent OTIS

Newman was willing to eat his best friend, the tough, gaimy Kramer after a slight summer saut� and a little Oregano (give or take some bread crumbs). You'd think a dash of salt and an air compressor would be all he needed to force a Bahstan-fed porker like Clavin down his gullet.

To paraphrase: Newman eats people. Technically, Clavin qualifies.

- Jason

I work in an office management environment. If there is one thing I have learned from my job, it is that evil favours aptitude in management. Everyone knows that Cliff Clavin is the more capable man for the job. but Newman is evil and mindless, which makes him the ideal candidate for promotion.

- James Wallace, Waterloo Engineering student

When Cliff and Newman enter for the interview they'll be asked the typical Mailperson questions ("Do you own any handweapons? Do you know how to use them? Would you purchase body armor at your own cost?"). Cliff will spout on for about 3 minutes about some obscure facts until his mind goes blank. Newman, ever the devious Spy/Mailman/Dog-catcher, will display his usual skills over lower animals and attract the attention of the interviewer and continue distracting him for another crucial 10 minutes. At the same time, Cliff will begin to long for his old haunting, "Cheers", which as we all know was the source of his whimsical and profound sayings (or at least the beer which precipitated them) and 5 minutes later, find himself sitting on the steps outside of the closed bar in Boston, the last memory of Good Times (tm) causing him to scratch at the door like the pathetic Mama's-boy he is.

Meanwhile, Newman's plans to use Kramer in a sinister plot to corner the world market on Stamp Glue will have reached fruition and before Kramer trades all the stock for a lifetime supply of golf-balls and Cuban cigars, will use this as leverage for obtaining his new position.

Newman in 13 minutes, after which he clocks in a full day's work.

- Nitin Dahyabhai

Newman.......its no contest. Since I work for postal stupervisors I have to say that Newman is not only stupid enough to over qualify, but hes meaner then a snake and extremely vindictive. Thats the ticket in postal mismana..er management. Cliffs intelligence qualifys him but down deep theres a nice guy. Though he is pretty good at fudging answers and asking inane questions and thats certainly a plus, but Newman could put away tons more donuts!!! Takes a lot of sugar to maintain the energy needed to harass people who are actually working!!

- Susan

It will be the duplicitous deliverer's diabolical double- dealings that will be his undoing. The Postal Service is NOT going to tolerate Newman's evil antics. He will disgrace his uniform, and Clavin will be given the promotion. Clavin's integrity as a civil- servant will finally earn him the recognition he deserves, which is almost nil.

- NEWBORN

Definitely Newman.

Well yes, obviously he's a loser, but look at his list of credits! Jurrasic Park: he was only one cloned dinosaur and a precipitatious night away from success. Seinfeld: yes, he kept trying to keep up with Kramers moronic (tm?) attempts to succeed, but the operative words here are "kept trying." 3rd Rock from the Sun: two words: Sally Solomon. Which of these guys managed to seduce an unconscionably aesthetic exterrestrial female? Now Clavin. Perhaps he is physically fit, but what has he actually DONE beside sit at the bar with a mail bag of filth from the junk he carries. I didn't even know who he was until I asked some old guy. That's my point, folks.

ps if some old guy named Dennis McCarthy responds ignore that!

- Jimmy McCarthy

Definitely Clavin.

You see, the real issue here is the calculatable probability determining which of our heroes is most likely to "go postal" (tm?). Given the generally accepted causes of the uniquely American phenomenon -- that is someone who is generally ignored and has little or know input into the mechanizations of their occupation, someone with at least a modicum of intelligence.....ah, never mind the reasons. Either way, for a guy who lives with his mom, hangs out in a place where everybody knows his name, and whose best friend is such a fixture that patrons who have been absent for twenty years know his name simply by his position at the bar, Clavin has little or no credence outside the sphere of influence he can create in front of his bathroom mirror. So when the time comes for either of these dynamic individuals to "go postal"(tm?), obviously it's Clavin who will go the furthest the fastest, thereby reducing Newman to matter resembling Swiss Cheese.

ps if you hear from a Jimmy McCarthy, carefully lose that response in the shuffle.

- Dennis McCarthy

If you liked this match, check out these other past matches:

Homer v. Norm
Rev. Jim Ignatowski v. Cosmo Kramer
Cujo v. Disgruntled Postal Worker