Somewhere in The Matrix™...
"I have taught you all I can," says Morpheus, eerily serene with his shaved head and opaque shades. "If you are to be The One and free humanity, you must have a new mentor to guide you the rest of the way."
Neo's mouth hangs ajar in thoughtful introspection. "That's cool. Who?"
"There are two who are wise and mysterious enough. The first one is here now: Ambassador Kosh, of the Vorlon Empire."
A massive figure approaches, wearing an encounter suit that covers its whole body. Ghostly sounds whisper around it before it speaks. "Ignorance is the beginning of knowledge. Incoherence is the beginning of expression. You stand at the beginning, which is the end. I will guide you through the spaces in between."
Neo stares pensively. "Whoa."
A scuffling sound turns his head, but he must look down to see his other prospective teacher. "To use the Force, clear must one's mind be, untroubled by his thoughts. Never an emptier mind have I sensed. Jedi Master Yoda I am. Begin your training now I will."
Neo looks on in reverence. "Hey, liked your movies."
Kosh glides over, menacingly. "This human is mine. He can learn no mastery from one who cannot master grammar."
Yoda stands his ground. "At least make sense I do. Beginning is the end, hmf!"
The iris on Kosh's helmet opens, light pouring out. Electricity begins to crackle around his mantle. "If you fight here, you will die."
"Light shows impress a Jedi not. Learn the power of the Force you will!"
"Dudes, chill," Neo incisively opines, before Morpheus drags him out of the way by the collar.
So, Brendan, which mighty maestro of mental manipulations and manifestations will manage mastery in the melee, and mold the mind of the messiah of The Matrix™?
BRENDAN: I can only assume the Warsies didn't learn their lesson from the Ivanova-Leia-Seven matchup. On behalf of the Great Maker, I am more than willing to teach it to them again because Yoda doesn't stand a chance against the awesome power of Ambassador Kosh Narenek.
Did Yoda do anything at all useful at any point in the entire Star Wars trilogy? No, he was completely useless, C-3PO played a bigger part in the Rebel's triumph than this supposedly great Jedi Master did. All Yoda did was hide out in some swamp and send others out to die for him. He didn't even do a good job of training his cannon fodder (Luke learns from Yoda, Luke fights Vader, Luke loses a hand). And based on Phantom Menace, we can determine that Yoda has always pretty much been useless. (I'll stand right by Senator Palpatine but I'm not going to detect that he is an evil mastermind or anything). And as final evidence of Yoda's complete worthlessness, he couldn't even beat R2D2 in a fight.
Now lets compare that to Ambassador Kosh. Kosh can do the cryptic master thing just as well as Yoda, but Kosh also has a few other skills. Photocopying telepath's minds, sending religious visions to drug crazed Narns, unleashing Vorlon warships on unsuspecting Shadow vessels, and even coming back from the dead to help whack a fellow Vorlon are just a few of our favorite Vorlon's abilities. Also lets face it, when it comes to training intellectually challenged pretty boys, Kosh has definitely got it over Yoda (have you seen any recent pictures of Mark Hamill?) And finally Kosh has one advantage that Yoda can't possible compete with, Kosh has diplomatic immunity. Not only does this mean that everything he does will be nice and legal, but also that the one minor skill Yoda does possess is now completely negated (Kosh won't need Yoda to pull his ship out of any swampy areas, he can park in a handicapped zone).
Yoda should go find Kermit and the gang and sing a nice rendition of Its Not Easy Being Green, because this one belongs to Kosh.
SHANE: I hate to shatter your delusions, Brendan, but hey, that's what Ground Zero™ is all about. As a mercy, though, I will refrain from using taunting Yoda syntax during my response.
When there is a galaxy-spanning genocidal pogrom against your kind, and you not only survive untouched, but live to train the warrior who will avenge all that's gone before, that is a sign of epic greatness. That is the greatness that is Yoda. (And Luke lost his hand because he disobeyed Yoda's command to complete his training. That's what you get when you dis the Yodster.) Oh, and you must be the only person over the age of four on Earth who thought he was really trying against R2-D2. If he had been, R2 would have ended up a new satellite of Dagobah. In space, no one can hear you beep.
Kosh, on the other hand, got himself rudely slaughtered by a lone Shadow infiltrator on Babylon 5, the equivalent of getting killed by an Imperial Stormtrooper. Ironic, really, that someone who feels the need to put on two hundred pounds of body armor to go for a walk buys it in his own cabin. Still, it's in keeping with the feebleness of his whole race, which was chased out of the galaxy by a stern lecture from Bruce Boxleitner! Anybody, anybody who gets whipped by someone named Bruce (whose last name is not Willis) is snacking mighty low on the food chain.
Look for Kosh to find himself beneath a levitating X-wing, saying something enigmatic like "I soiled my armor!" just before he's flattened.
BRENDAN: Let me get this straight, you are wanting to give props to Yoda for running away and hiding from the Jedi slaughterfest that his own ineptness as a Jedi Master allowed to happen in the first place??? Yoda was one of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy and he had Samuel L. Jackson as his number two man, and he still managed to get his ass handed to him by a crooked politician and some punk kid. Utterly pathetic.
And on the subject of Luke disobeying him, what kind of great and powerful Jedi Master can't control his own student? Or doesn't help them when they get into trouble after running off? You'll notice that Kosh was there at Z'Ha'Dum to bail Sheridan out, even though it meant coming back from the dead to do it, I didn't see Yoda anywhere at Bespin.
Which brings us back to the subject of death and I've got to say that you've really got a lot of gall talking trash about Kosh who died a warrior's death (and it was against 3 Shadows not 1) when Old Man Yoda died of old age in some swamp shack, 500 lightyears away from any bad guys. Yoda was such a coward that even his ghost wasn't willing to show up until after the fighting was done and the Empire was destroyed. With this guy as the main guardian of the Republic its no wonder that the side that was stuck with all the Stormtroopers still managed to win.
And for the record Bruce happens to be one of our finest names. Not just for Bruce Willis or Bruce Boxleitner, but what about Bruce Lee, Bruce Springsteen, or the greatest of them all, Bruce Campbell. If America was permitted by the Constitution to have a king, I guarantee you his name would be Bruce. And his chief of staff would be the only one wise, strong, and brave enough for that position, Ambassador Kosh Narenek.
SHANE: My, you're fond of Kosh's last name, considering we almost never heard it on the series. Is there a family connection? Perhaps he's a business partner? Procurer? Unindicted co-conspirator? We'll get to the bottom of this later.
Okay, I'll give you Bruce Lee, but his awesome might springs from an Asian mysticism so akin to Yoda's, he's practically a Jedi himself. (And he's kinda short, too. Coincidence? I think not.) And the Force is obviously with Willis: he blew up the Death Star. But as for Springsteen, I'm not that impressed by blue jeans and incomprehensible lyrics. And Bruce Campbell? Haven't we had enough guys around Yoda losing their hands? Gee, why not throw in the Bruces from the Monty Python Australian university sketch while you're at it? "Howls of derisive laughter, Bruce!"
Also, stop trying to pin blame for the Jedi massacre on Yoda. (Geez, everyone's a finger-pointer.) Punk kids are the most destructive beings known to the galaxy, if the Pokemon craze is any indication, and if you don't think corrupt politicians are such terrors, where have you been the last seven years? Yoda had the last laugh, though, while Kosh's race is still fleeing from The Wrath of Boxleitner.
The decisive factor in this match, though, is the Jedi power to manipulate inert objects. Now, what's the most inert object within range? Easy: Keanu Reeves. Yoda will just telepathically click-and-drag him over to absorb whatever Kosh can dish out, before thrashing his mentally exhausted Vorlon foe. Keanu may get considerably ruptured in the process, but that's just one more way the galaxy will be a better place for Yoda having been in it.
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IN SPITE OF the fact that I have no idea who Kosh is, in spite of the fact that I've never seen an episode of Babylon 5 in my life, in spite of the fact that I generally look down on anything B5-related, I cast my vote for Kosh.
Why, you ask?
THE BACKLASH BEGINS. Already started by film critics and disgruntled moviegoers, it is time to press the disappointment, dissatisfaction and sheer disgust of The Phantom Menace into the deepest, darkest enclaves of Star Wars fandom. Once we saturate Ground Zero with disaffection and malaise, we will use it as a springboard to take the Star Wars@Upenn and then the LucasFilm sites proper. We will leave no stone unturned until everyone on the planet agrees that A) The Phantom Menace undoubtably sucked, and B) George Lucas is never allowed to make a movie again. He must hand the responsibility for the rest of the series over to competent filmmakers. We will not rest until we make it perfectly clear that, if the next episode is another poorly-made, trumped-up kid's movie, it will be in and out of theatres quicker than Ishtar.
I'm instituting a bounty on fanboys,
--Rosencrantz,
mercenary film critic and rogue demographic analyst.
- The revolution will not be televised, and Jar-Jar will be the first against the wall.
After 10 minutes of talking with Neo, Yoda will probably encourage him to give the dark side a try. Observe:
"Yo, most gnarly little green dude, like, what's the force?"
"Worry about that not. Annoy me you do. Get rid of you I must. The Dark Side you must go to. Stupidity leads to emptiness. Emptiness leads to annoyance. Annoyance leads to barely credible Shakespearean roles."
"Like, ok!"
Keanu Reeves unleashed on the Empire is more dangerous than the torpedo that took out the Death Star. So, by losing Neo, Yoda actually wins the day.
- 1/2 Nelson
There was a blinding flash of light as the headpiece of Kosh's
encounter suit rose. When vision returned, Morpheus and Neo saw Kosh
in his angelic form. Yoda at first saw Grover from Sesame Street in
a white robe and wings.
"See through your deception, I can!", Yoda said, and The Force
ripped away Kosh's disguise. The Vorlon fluttered in its true
gelatinous form. Yoda and Kosh, the real Kosh, were steeling
for battle.
Meanwhile, in the Real World™ (a subsidiary of The
Matrix™)...
"We're giving Kosh all the power we can, Mr. Straczynski," said
the graphic artist. Behind him was a small network of IBM PC clones,
each one rendering with all the sheer glory that Video Toaster™
could crank out.
JMS struck a thoughtful posture. "Well, he should be able to
hold his own, unless our competition figures out what's going on.
But just in case, load the Shadow files, all variants, as well as
every form of First One, Drakh and Na'Ka'Leen Feeder".
In the Matrix, Kosh wasn't alone. The sky filled with
Shadow battlecrabs. First Ones gathered around. Yoda realized he
was suddenly outmatched. He reached out with The Force and
contacted... another.
Back in the Real World™...
Skywalker Ranch was on full alert. "Mr. Lucas, Yoda's in
trouble!" George Lucas waved a flanneled arm and merely whispered,
"do it." Somewhere in the bowels of Marin County, fifteen Silicon
Graphics rendering engines instantly cluster booted and went online.
More raw computing power than was available to the Pentagon reached
far within itself, grabbed pre-existing images and every scrap of
concept art, and piped the feed into the Matrix.
Now Yoda wasn't alone. Forming out of phosphorescence were a T-
Rex, the animals of Jumanji, battledroids, an army of CG-
rendered Darth Mauls, a LEGION of Jar-Jar Binks, and for good measure
several battalions of digitally drawn English Soccer Hooligans. Yoda
cracked a sly grin at the hapless Vorlon.
In JMS's office, the PC network was smoking as it was
tragically overwhelmed by the power cosmic of Lucasfilm. While in
the Matrix, Kosh uttered his final, cryptic word before disappearing
forever:
"Rosebud..."
- Chris 'Jedi' Knight, "Virtual Insanity" personified, without the funky hat :-(
As everyone knows, Perot fell into an inconsolable grief after losing the presidential vote to Mr. Burns. He became a recluse, insisting on wearing nothing but burlap sacks and speaking in sentence fragments. To top it off, in a bizarre accident involving a New York sewer rat named Ethyl, he developed a rare skin condition known as "Kermitosis."
Desperate for a job, Perot (or, as he now preferred to be called, Perota) enrolled at the only place he had the proper training for: The Springfield Nuclear Power Plant. President Burns, who still owned the plant, recognized his old nemesis, hired him, and promptly sent him hurtling into space in one of his many extra escape pods. As we all know, he landed on Dagobah. Naturally, due to his fevered state, Perota (whose receding tongue made him now pronounce it Yoda) didn't notice the change in his environment, and assumed that he had been a Jedi Master, and that he was 900 years old. (It was only by pure coincidence that Ben Kenobi had been trained by a Jedi master named Yoda; The real Yoda was a CGI-enhanced Jackalope voiced by Paul Reubens who was killed by a drunken Jar Jar Binks). The only memory Perot/Yoda had of his previous life was an intense hatred of Burns.
Which brings us to this match. Upon seeing Kosh, Yoda will think he's face to face with Burns (in his longevity suit) and will commence to beat the life out of Kosh with his little walking stick.
-Vermin Boy (Oh, like all that non-movie continuity is any better?)
- PS- You failed to mention that Bruce McCulloch could kick both their asses.
The bigger they are, the harder they fall...
- Fistandantilus of Montreal - Officially Sanctioned Crazed Looney(tm)
Yoda and Shaft wipe out Kosh and go out for Colt .45s with Lando........ohhhhhh yeah
-
Hmmm... Such a decision.
Both horribly maimed and killed. It's the only way. Nobody can win when backed by such shining examples of recto-cerebral misalignment.
- McKenzie 'Diss 'em all and let God sort 'em out' Fleming
But YODA, on the other hand. Aside from the fact that Yoda's series has been the focus of numerous video games for both console and PC, Yoda has one thing going for him: BAD GRAMMAR! Yoda couldn't speak a sentence correctly to save his life, and this is what will win the fight for him. Bad translations have always been a part of video games. For example: "Winner is you" (Pro Wrestling, NES), "It seems you're being used by the Baron while you're amnesiac" (Final Fantasy II, SNES [Note that aside from the obvious error, Baron is a town and therefore should not have a 'the' before it]), "Thank you for playing. And see you next." (Ninja Gaiden, NES), and, more recently, "Master, sir, did you just see my MAD SKILLZ!?" (Xenogears, PSX. Not a BAD translation PER SE, but funny as hell nonetheless). Yoda can call on the heroes/creators of these badly translated video games to assist him, if he so chooses. Just by the association, though, he won't need to. "Winner is Yoda! Speech articulate he does have, yes!"
- Dark Fact
Yoda minds his own business.
From the episodes I've seen of Babylon 5, the Vorlons are the Ugly Americans (TM) of that intergalactic UN. That is to say, they always butt in when they're not needed, and they're arrogant as hell. They interfered in human evolution to create telepaths,(and indirectly, the abomination known as the Psi-Corps (TM)) some of the most feared, hated, angst-ridden, pathetic, and in the case of the Corps, ruthless, and manipulative, bastards in the B5 universive.
They've interfered in the affairs of sentient species so much, they've become part of ALL their myths and beliefs. Kosh had to wear the encounter suit because everyone and everything on the entire frickin' station would have recognised him as their particular godhead/angel/avatar of choice (Think: any US celebrity wearing sunglasses). And when it comes down to the crunch, They Don't Want To Get Involved (TM). In fact, Kosh nearly killed Sheridan when he talked back to him, and suggested the Vorlons start whipping Shadow arse.
Just like, back in the day, during both World Wars, the US spent four years sitting back on its duff, and selling arms to both sides. In WWII, it took Pearl Harbour to make them realise what was going on.
Now, the Jedi have a rep, granted. But they don't flaunt it the way the Vorlons do. They're respected, but not hailed as Invincible Gods (TM) (notice how the Trade Federation didn't hesitate to try killing them in Episode I). And Yoda didn't feel there was a crying need to train Luke, he had to be persuaded by Obi-Wan. And nobody screwed with DNA chains to create The Force (mitochlorians be damned). Also, Yoda knew his limitations, and that the Force is an imperfect tool, at best, especially with things like precognition. More self-effacing. Like a Canadian. Also, he's little. Like a Canadian. I'm Canadian, so I have to go with the home team.
And lastly, both these guys are incredibly old. Remember Midgets vs. Centennarians in Grudge Classic? According to the Poohbah(TM), Yoda was the secret weapon that won that war -- he's the little guy. As the Poohbah (TM) said:
YODA THINK YOU DEFEAT? THINK SO I DO NOT!
Yoda cracks Kosh open like a sardine can. Finis.
- The Observer
Pros and cons of Yoda and Kosh:
Partners in respective shows/movies
Yoda: Jar Jar Binks and Mace Windu.
Kosh: Dunno. Never seen the show to remember it.
Two is (almost) always better than one. However, Jar Jar has a
reputation for getting into trouble. Mace Windu is being made out to
be the traitor in E2, so we'll just forget about them.
Weapons:
Yoda: The Force
Kosh: Telepathy
Uhmm....with the Force as his ally, nothing can go wrong!
But telepathy is pretty cool, so they're even.
Ships:
Yoda: has one wimpy Ambassadorial ship, that got blown up in one shot.
Kosh: has got the whole Vorlon fleet.
Duh, Kosh.
Women:
Yoda: Amidala and Leia
Kosh: Lyta Alexandra
Amidala and Leia could kick Lyta's butt any day. But her telepathy
thingy could help her out. However, Leia is also a Jedi, so they're
pretty evenly matched. They discuss men and makeup while Kosh and Yoda
bring it on.
Men:
Yoda: Luke Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, and Mace
Windu.
Kosh: Uhmm.....
Luke. A whiner.
Obi-Wan Kenobi. Dead.
Anakin Skywalker. Dead.
Mace Windu. Wherabouts unkown.
After that extensive research, I must end with this final thought: One is less than two. Thank you.
- Lost in Coruscant
Yoda speaks pretty simply. Okay, he talks WIERD, but what he says makes sense. 'Adventure, excitement, a Jedi craves not these things!' 'A Jedi's power flows -with- the force!' 'Size matters not!'
Let's look at Kosh, now. He speaks with a Moog synthesizer. And what he says is totally incomprehensible to the given situation. 'The truth is a three-edged sword.' 'The avalanche has already begun.' 'A moment of perfect beauty.'
Let's face it: if somoeone can talk THAT way, and make perfect sense to himself, and still take on a student just to make it difficult for the student, they have GOT to have an insane level of clarity of thought!
Okay, we've determined that Kosh is the better teacher for Neo. But who would win in a duel? Yoda or Kosh?
Okay, sure, Yoda can throw an X-wing. But it took a LOT out of him, you could tell. Kosh? Well, another of his race -- the one people usually call 'Kosh Vader' -- came close to taking out the entire station. He and Kosh duking it out ended up in a ship about three or four times the size of an X-wing being blown to smithereens. And Jedi mind-tricks? Jedi ain't got nothing on the Vorlons. Vorlons have gotten all of the younger races so mind-****ed that all of them look at a Vorlon and see an angelic being from their mythology. They suckered all of the younger races into a huge war to take out once and for all the Shadows and had no regrets.
My vote: Kosh will do the equivalent of '*bong*waaww* Your shoelace is untied,' to Yoda, and then give the little Jedi a case of Deep Hurting(tm).
- Caraig
Then, you publicly urinate all over Bruce Campbell, the single greatest thing to happen to crappy movies since Clint Howard! The Grudge Match community is just the sort of people who'd get stung the most by that! And they are masters of superimposing faces on pornography of a nature so foul the FCC won't even let me describe the species involved in this forum.
And, if you weren't already a Spinal Tap drummer, you forgot to mention Robert the Bruce on your These Are the Dweebs Named Bruce I Know list. So there's the Braveheart factor to weigh in now.
So now you've got
- Kilgore Trout
2. Anyway, in the scenario set up, Ted (I mean, Neo) utters "Whoa" when encountered with the first contestant. Neo probably utters "Whoa" when encountering the Salvation Army Santa. However, and the critical point here, Neo recognizes Yoda (a short, pudgy, green incarnation of the Buddha) immediately, and notes how he likes the Star Wars flicks.
3. Neo is a pseudo-messianic mystic figure. Yoda barely makes sense when he talks ...
3. Ergo, Neo and Yoda are both avatars of the Big Buddha.
4. "Demigods, Avatars, and other subdeities generally have the advantage in a conflict" -- Grudge Match Rule #1437.
5. Yoda wins with one gnarly, three fingered hand tied behind his back.
- LT Dan
Yes, you know what I mean -- Wierd Al Yankovic!!! He wrote an entire song about Yoda. The wrinkled green muppet even managed to get mentioned in a second song by the Wierd One. Such a strong connection to Al and his vast army of Close Personal Friends of Al immediately guarantee victory.
Thing about what Al can bring in. His rowdy teenage fans from "Smells Like Nirvana," his tough Amish homies from "Amish Paradise," his rabid ice-cream eating friends from "I Love Rocky Road," his butcher/surgeon buddies from "Like a Surgeon," the claymation dinosaurs from "Jurassic Park," the cavemen from "Bedrock Anthem," the "Fat" dancers, and more...
And that isn't even including UHF. UHF can bring in Kramer (which is why Seinfeld should have won the couch, and if I had had a computer to vote that week, they would have)! And Fran Drescher (who wouldn't cringe at the sound of Fran Drescher's mighty, irritating, and mighty irritating laugh?)! And that guy who did the Karate stuff! And Gandhi II! Now I ask you, who kicks more ass than Gandhi in Gandhi II? Not even all 4 Batmen combined (granted, Clooney does negate them...)!
And from Running With Scissors, he has the Jerry Springer guests (from "The Jerry Springer Song"), a hermaphrodite with a flock of seaguls haircut, one nostril, and the Dental hygenist from "Albequerque." And that's not even from the videos. What about the moshing computer programmers from "All about the Pentiums"?
But all of these assets pale in comparison to what's proven in "The Saga Begins" video... Al is a Jedi!!! A guitar-playing Jedi!
- Lisa Fortuner
1) Kosh has better theme music.
2) Kosh is better dressed (designer encounter suits vs. gawsh-I-reckon-I-plumb-forgot-to-clean-the-manure-from-between-my-toes homespun).
3) It can be argued that Kosh, despite his learning and knowledge, sometimes fails to display the wisdom he (presumably)so painfully accumulated over the centuries. On the other hand, Yoda's whole schtick is that wisdom can be had without knowledge or learning.
Points one and two tend to make Kosh a fascist (which, in fact, he is), since the fascists are always the best dressed and have the best theme music. These are two nominal strikes against Kosh, but the the third point is the critcal one.
Kosh represents the elitist b**tard school of philosophy; that, in point of fact, your hairdresser should not and *cannot* hold an opinion of equal weight to that of your oncologist where your impending cancer surgery is concerned, that the path to wisdom is through learning and hard won knowledge, and that a detailed understanding of oneself is a necessary part of this.
Yoda, on the other hand, purports to be a populist nitwit; wisdom exists in the absence of reasoned, fact-based argument -- it is a thing of feeling, and anyone can aspire to feeling. ("I feel your pain," comes painfully to mind.) Never mind David Brin's brilliant essay that demonstrates that Yoda really is a nitwit or, more sinisterly, is the singal greatest cause behind the rise of the Empire. The sad fact is people generally tend to fall for the miracle shortcut approach, becasue the hard work and dedication approach requires, well, too much hard work and dedication.
Mourn the human race if Kosh loses.
- Leopold
Whew...good match. Both contestants have proven power, wisdom, the right to appear in a sci-fi piece, and the ability to exist in some form after death. The two, in and of themselves, are equally matched, and would bring a tie vote into the mix, except....
Well, a good amount of people have seen Babylon 5 - some most likely buying cable just to stay with the series when Ted Turner for once applied his millions in a worthy manner and saved it from the extinction it faced at the hands of local syndication.
Name one person over the age of three who can't tell you about Star Wars. And, should you do so, tell me at what point he secluded him or herself from movies, televison, and anything not found under his or her rock.
And, from that, choose those who Yoda-speak on occasion just for fun. Babylon 5 pales by comparison.
Neo decides as Kosh tries to put up some sort of attack. Sacrificing himself to save his childhood memory of a cute, green imp, he shows true enlightenment, in getting rid of himself. Alas, Kosh goes in the process, but, hey - at least we know that's not the end of him; just that Yoda wins.
- Nicholas Eckert, a.k.a. the Vidstudent
Yoda is all that AND a bag of chips. Let's review. He has mastery over the physical world. Hello, I'd like to lift a STARSHIP with my MIND today....mmmph...ah. There we go. His allies include an entire rebellion force that's sufficiently potent and well-organized to take down a far superior force.
But this doesn't touch upon the most important aspect.
You see, Samuel L. Jackson is the MAN. He has full license to inflict savage beat-down on anyone and anything that gets up in his face.
Samuel L. Jackson is Yoda's second-in-command. His lower-down. His flunkie. Samuel L. Jackson is LESS of a badass than Yoda.
That's all we need to know. All Yoda needs to do is seize control of Kosh's bodysuit, and it's "Mmm, time to bring out the gimp it is!"
- Istanbul
Kosh would have allowed the young Anakin to "conveniently" be run over by a power loader.
Who do YOU think is going to be a better mentor?
(Besides, Neo is used to things making no sense whatsoever. Kosh won't phase him a bit)
- Pontifex
- Katrover Swatroad
APPEARANCE
Yoda - He won't be winning the title of 'Mr Universe'.
Kosh - Although he looks like a juke box on the outside and a squid/
jellyfish without the encounter suit he can make people see
him as an angelic, winged figure. A cute one too.
Winner - Kosh
POWERS
Yoda - He's a Jedi Master. That says it all.
Kosh - He's telepathic but there's no Force in the B5 Universe.
Winner - Yoda
MOMENT OF GLORY
Yoda - In 'Empire' after Luke sulks when he fails to levitate his
X-wing out of a swamp, Yoda levitates it out, no problem.
Kosh - In the season 2 cliffhanger, to save Sheridan from falling to
his death Kosh soars out of his encounter suit and catches him.
The look on Sheridan's face when he sees what looks to him like
an angel flying towards him is priceless.
Winner - Kosh
ACHIEVEMENTS OF STUDENTS
Yoda - His student Luke became a Jedi Knight, redeemed his evil father
and helped destroy the Empire.
Kosh - His student John banished the Shadows/Vorlons from the galaxy
(Kosh was the only Vorlon who didn't treat other people like
dirt) and after liberating Earth from its evil government
became President of the Interstellar Alliance.
Winner - Both
DEATH SCENE
Yoda - Dies of old age in his swamp hut. Minor weeping by me.
Kosh - Kosh is killed by the Shadows but manages to say goodbye to
Sheridan in a vision. Major weeping by me, hell, I was a
complete mess after that scene. Also too, on a scale of 1
('bowel stiflingly uninvolving') to 10 ('incredibly moving')
British magazine SFX rated Kosh's death scene as 20+.
Winner - Kosh
"Ambassador Kosh is the winner" intones Morpheus. "Excellent!" crows Neo and having a brief flashback to 'Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure' does some air guitar. Morpheus rolls his eyes and Yoda thinks that maybe losing wasn't so bad after all.
- Nicky Lewer
Thus, in any science fiction setting Yoda will work much better, therefore he will ctrl-alt-delete Kosh out of existance.
- tuffy
Fighting Skill and Spirit - OK, on one side we have a little green Muppet who surrenders to R2-D2 and dies hiding in a swamp of old age. On the other, an alien throwing lightning, telekinetics, and God knows what else who deliberately courted attack from superior Shadow forces (said Shadows no doubt being more than capable of taking Yoda's little wrinkled green butt and turning him in Intel(TM) Inside for their ships), and managed to hold a touching final conversation with Sheridan even though obviously distracted by being killed. But is this the end? Heck no! That tough old Vorlon sticks around to save his student's butt at Z'ha'dum with timely advice AND takes out a fellow Vorlon later on to do the same thing! And after THAT he makes sure to let Sheridan know where to go for the series finale. Folks, Kosh doesn't even let DEATH stop him from doing his mentor job; you ain't gonna beat that kind of dedication!
Worst Nightmare Factor - Kosh is a dark figure with cool armor who talks with funny noises and has shown telekinetic strangling powers, and his buddies possess a planet-killing superweapon. Yoda's response to the last guy like that was to flee in terror to the aforementioned swamp...
Age Factor - Yoda may boast about being 900 years old, but Kosh was around to greet Sinclair/Valen a thousand years ago, and considering THE oldest being in the galaxy mentioned knowing him I seriously doubt he was a youngster then either. Yoda may or may not fall for the oldest tricks in the book, but Kosh was probably THERE when they were invented!
Student Success Factor - Luke Skywalker did manage to defeat the Emperor and Darth Vader, but judging by the fact he lost his hand immediately after Yoda's "great training" and won only by ignoring Yoda and Obi-Wan's advice to kill Vader instead of converting him, it's safe to say Luke won IN SPITE OF Yoda rather than because of him. And if you factor in the books and comics, we see Luke later fall to the Dark Side and even worse be written by Kevin J. Anderson. Sheridan, now... first, he manages to return from the DEAD, but is that all? Hell no! That boy first convinces the First Ones (most of whom probably have pocket lint older than Sheridan) to "get the hell out of our galaxy", then he stages a successful revolt against the dictator ruling Earth, and THEN he creates an Alliance whose effects are still felt a MILLION years after he's gone. And he snags a hot chick like Delenn to boot. That boy's got the SKILLS, and I'm sure at least some of that is because of Kosh's treatment. And speaking of which...
Cruelty to Keanu - We've seen Yoda show some mental cruelty to Luke by showing him cutting off his own head, but that's about it. Kosh on the other hand came within inches of KILLING Sheridan with a telekinetic death grip, going so far as to draw blood! If we've got a chance to see Keanu Reeves suffer, I want to see him put in the hands of the teacher more likely to cause some REAL damage! Therefore-
<funky music> You have... forgotten something.
Oh, sorry Kosh. Yes, indeed I have; finally...
Weakest Costars - For Kosh: Lockley or Byron, depending on your viewpoint (and both of which showed up AFTER he was gone). Yoda: Jar-Jar or the Ewoks. The proverbial "enough said"...
FATALITY! FLAWLESS VICTORY!!! Kosh demonstrates conclusively they don't call him a First One for nothing!
- "Mad Dog" Mike
Therefore, Yoda will win the match.
- The Archimage
- Claymore
Yoda is telekinetic, but that don't mean squat to some who is made of PURE ENERGY! Besides, Kosh is a telepath, he'd know Yoda's moves before he even thought about it! Besides, after putting up with Bruce "Got-To-Make-A-Speech-Every-Time-The-Camera-Is-On-Me" Boxleitner (face it, the guy is a cross between William Shatner and Keven Kostner), and being on the same station as mega-babe Claudia Christian, the guy has a lot of pent-up frustration! All to be directed on muppet-boy. Afterwards he take on the second greatest threat: Keanu Reeves!
- Kain
Kosh has gotten pissed. When he gets pissed, he gets dangerous. He slapped around Bruce Boxleitner, took a fellow Vorlon with him to the great, final haven of well-written characters, and even massacred the nigh-invincible Shadows with a surprise attack. And, unlike Yoda, Kosh isn't still a virgin. Kosh scored with Lyta Alexander, played by Pat Tallman. A redhead, who I believe was once an adult film star.
I see Kosh slowly lashing out with tendrils of light after opening his encounter suit, jamming them into every orifice Yoda has, and slowly pureeing his internal organs. The Force is really fricken' strong with this one.
- Good Sci-Fi is a three edged sword....
What does the Tale of the TapeTM tell us?
It tells us that Star Wars and Babylon 5 both own Star Trek's girly ass, and that Star Wars and Babylon 5 have never clashed this directly before; in the previous match that pitted them against each other, Leia was there to complicate affairs.
This all leads me to the inescapable conclusion that there's going to be a run-in. If professional wrestling has taught me anything, besides how Western civilization is going straight to hell, it's that matches like this will always be interfered with by a third party.
Look for Guinan to make a surprise appearance near the end of this, beat both Muppets senseless, and walk off with the WWWF crown.
- Thomas Wilde
- Topcat
The fact remains that you never see the real Kosh during the show, only a bright ball of light coming into and out of that suit. Therefore, there can only be one explanation, and that is that Kosh is -- TINKERBELL.
Now Tinkerbell vs. Yoda...how do you like them apples now? Too bad your foolish comments are already up there for all to see, your ignorance immortalized for all eternity!
A wise man said, "Time is like the tide...blue." Words to live by.
- GoWhalers
- Nutrini
It only makes sense on Ork where you get younger as you get older. Yoda must have thought that Anakin looked younger than Luke and, therefore, must be older than Luke.
Therefore, Yoda must be from Ork.
Not a believer? Well, Yoda would easily fit into one of those egg spaceships.
Still not a believer? Well, Yoda looks super-duper old. Which would make him super-duper young on Ork. Which would explain his lacking command of the English language--he hasn't developed it yet.
Do you still doubt me? Yoda is weird-ass...just like Mork!!!
There's no way I vote for an old young freak from Ork. Kosh wins!
- Mark Wentz
E.x.
"Man, I just Koshed that poor motherf---er"
Sounds pretty good, kind of appropriate. I wouldn't want to be the dude that Samuel put the Kosh on.
Or...
"Man, I just yodaed that motherf---er"
Sounds like Samuel approached some guy on the street and attempted to sell him a cheap but reliable Korean made sub-compact. Not as high on the threatening scale.
- ZoomZip
- Eihort
Annoying this syntax is, hmmm? Too bad.
1. A long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away Star Wars was. From the future B5 is. B5 came after Star Wars this means. Stronger one's powers get as older one gets. Therefore, more powerful than Yoda Kosh is.
Kill no one Yoda has. Goes against the light side killing does. Kill many Kosh has. Kosh has more experience than Yoda this means. Not even a lightsaber Yoda has. Taller than he is it would be. A light-toothpick it would be if had one he did. Lightning Kosh has. Lightning the Emperor has also. Beat a light-saber lightning does. A little decal on the side of Kosh's Encounter suit Yoda will become.
Vague and obvious Yoda's predictions are. "I sense much fear in you" The Deanna Troi of Jedi Yoda is. The death of him this Star Trek association is. Anyway. Enigmatic Kosh is. "Seek the dark that pierces the light." Confused as hell Yoda will become. Rely on the "Force" Yoda does. Rely on the intelligence gathering ability of one of the oldest races ever Kosh does.
To no avail this will be unfortunately. Idiots Star Wars Fanboys are.
- X 'nlath: Slayer of the Wild z'gid'us
(Yes, I know Morpheus didn't (yet) but there are sequels.)
Given that the winner must die, which of the two puppets...err... aliens is most useful while dead?
Yoda didn't even prove as useful as Obi-Wan, who at least had the gumption to give advice after going through the Vader Cuisinart. Yoda didn't do a damn thing except show up at the party after he croaked.
Kosh not only helped save Sheridan's life, he engaged in a battle with a living Vorlon and won. And that wasn't even all of Kosh, just a part of him. Like the green prune has a chance against that sort of power.
Kosh also has a secret weapon. Vorlons appear to other species as holy creatures, creatures of light, of perfection, but of their own species. All Kosh has to do is open the encounter suit and Keanu will see his version of perfection. Someone with talent. And he'll fall down and worship this vision and forget the short green dude even as he utters the mantra "whoa".
- Keith of the Arctic
Numbers
As the second Vorlon Ambassador to Babylon 5 said, "We're all Kosh."
This means that potentially this match could actually be Yoda vs. The
Entire Vorlon Race. Next match: A single squirrel vs. The 3rd Armored
Cavalry.
Yoda deserves to lose...
...because he failed to give Luke the advice he needed most. Would it
have killed him to just once say, "No more tonsil hockey with Leia!
Trust me on this, you must." If Han had not been available to put The
Moves(TM) on, Episode Six might well have been
called Incest of the Jedi.
The Coup de Al
What do Yoda and previous Grudge Contestant Michael Jackson have in
common?
Both of them have been victims of Weird Al Yankovic parody
tunes.
What do Kosh and previous Grudge Contestant Prince (aka
"The Artist Currently Known By Some Symbol That Only A Complete
Dipstick Would Think Is A Name") have in common?
They haven't been
victims of Weird Al parody tunes, because they have no sense of
humor. People with no sense of humor get The Rage(TM)
going pretty easily. Rage(TM) got Prince
the win in Prince vs. Michael Jackson during the Grudge
Classic days, and Rage(TM) will give Kosh the
victory here. After all, Al wanted to do him as "Johnny Kosh, the
Vorlon in Black", and that's enough to tick anybody off.
To close, let me say that I doubt any real blood-and-guts mayhem will occur, but I wouldn't be surprised if Yoda has something other than Frank Oz's hand up his backside when Kosh sends him packing.
- Mr. Silverback- A Merry Christmas (Isaiah 9:6-7) to all, and to all a good night.
"Hmmm, wish I had a lightsaber I do..." Murmured Yoda under his breath.
Kosh looked at his tiny nemesis. "Even a master must guard his weaknesses well or be consumed by them." and he fired a powerful burst of energy into the ground directly in front of Yoda.
"Ha ha, miss me you did!" chortled Yoda. Then he died.
Kosh pulled the puppet off the stiffening and slightly sizzling fingers of Frank Oz. It was too bad, Kosh actually had a fondness for reruns of the Muppet Show.
"Poor puppet, one more reason you should have been CGI in Phantom Menace."
- Lancelot
- Peanuts"What the hell were those Ghost's names?"Pat
They're old.
Think about this.
Who knows how many years of fighting the forces of evil, and after all that time, they are, of course, old.
Reflect on this for a few more minutes.
Now, if you're a general sort of good-guy in a galaxy run mainly by bad guys, just living long enough to show up is an accomplishment. Living long enough to train a successor is a greater accomplishment.
Living so long, however, that you die of old age before said bad guy can even get to you; now that, ladies and gentlemen, is a real accomplishment.
Has anyone here ever heard of "survival of the fittest"?....
p.s. And coming back from the dead is, frankly, not all that impressive on tv. Or in comic books. Or in anything relating to science fiction or fantasy. So I wouldn't call what's-his-name's (sorry, never saw the show) return anything more than the last gasp of an actor who changed his mind about quitting the show. See Tasha Yar for reference, and I'm not going into the entire highly obvious Star Trek connection here...
- Fade the Cat
You decide to doom B5's perfect Ground Zero/Grudge Match record by putting it up against the poster muppet for the galaxy's most over-rated sci-fi franchise.
May Ivanova have mercy on your soul.
- -Rob
- Turner
1) This Kosh individual is as familiar to me as the appeal of Kenny G.
2) Yoda ranks right behind Elmo as the most annoying muppet ever to have a hand shoved up its rectum.
Those points notwithstanding, the win for Yoda is almost as easy as bedding Courtney Love...
If we think back to a long, long time ago, in a movie theatre far, far away. Darth Vader used the "Force" (no ™ for you!) to choke a subordinate while lifting him off the ground (the warsies can go to their precious newsgroup to debate the name of the poor bastard, for all I care).
If we use HotBranch!™ logic, it is only natural to expect Yoda to reach out and "touch" his opponent in a not dissimilar way. The backwards speaking muppet will get that stupid furrowed brow as he concentrates on his subject. Before Kosh can do whatever it is he does, he begins seeing stars and his incomprehensible speech rises several octaves. He hits the ground with a mighty thump, clutching his groin in the well-known fetal position.
Yoda walks away, mumbling "Discount the power of the Jedi 'nad squeeze, must you never..."
- HotBranch!
"Frank Oz it is... and his hand not up my arse? Unexpected this is - and unfortunate."
With that, Yoda will fall in a crumpled heap in the ground. For as we all know, Yoda cannot exist without Frank Oz's hand up his arse.
- Oli
Factors:
Jobs: Kosh showed enough competence to be chosen as THE
representative of a seriously badass race. Yoda lives in a swamp.
Nobody calls... nobody writes.
Allies:
Kosh has the option of calling in the entire Vorlon race
(including planet killers), the entire crew of Babylon 5 (including
Lyta "Psychic, but not your Friend" Alexander, and Susan "Death
Incarnate" Ivanova), and last, but not least... Zathras, who counters
the one advantage Yoda might have, the Bad Grammar Factor.
Yoda has Luke. One Jedi. There'd be more if Yoda hadn't
accidentally doomed the rest of them...
THE KEANU FACTOR:
Suppose you were Keanu (It hurts, but try it). Kosh offers major power, cool Zen phrases, but most important, to Keanu, babeage. Sheridan ended up President, head of the White Stars and Rangers with the Mentos-level coolness to face down Kosh's people and the Shadows. But he ALSO had about a half-dozen wives, ending with Delenn (who changed _species_ to marry him).
Again, Yoda lives in a swamp. His most famous student has only been shown kissing his sister. Zen power or no zen power, Keanu would see that scenario ending with "Pretty mouth, you have!", and pitch in on Kosh's behalf. ("See you in the next life, dude!")
Finally...
Effects. Kosh has cool CGI and the nifty Encounter Suit. Yoda, no matter how you slice it, is a muppet. A Zen muppet, but it still gives him no more chance than those Dark Crystal things.
Result: Let's go to the Ambassador on this one. How will it end?
Kosh: (whooshgroanwhistlecreak) "In Fire. All over Yoda's ass."
- -Ted
As Yoda is channeling the Force, and Kosh is channeling the Non Localized Energy Source that is his power; two spirits appear between them, glowing with blue light. "Yoda wait!" states Obi-wan Kenobi. "Kosh Stop!" cries John Sheridan. "Are you both blind...don't you see the true enemy here!" They both exclaim as they point at Keanu. "Chain Reaction...Bill and Ted, Jonathan Harker in Dracula. Do those names ring a bell for you?" Yoda's eyes widen with shock, as does Kosh's lense thing...."Keanu Reeves," they both say quietly. "Awww...terrible actor are you ... die slowly you must." "Well said," whispers Kosh.
The scene fades, as we hear the worst acted death scene in film history, played out for real...amen.
Kosh and Yoda go out for a Beer...(Why not?)
Winner...the free peoples of a grateful universe...who celebrate by burning all films with Keanu in them except for The Matrix and the very end of Devils Advocate....where Keanu shoots himself in the head.
- Hayt
...namely, who brings us Yoda and Kosh.
Yoda is a household name thanks to Lord Lucas of the Skywalker Ranch (headquarters of the Jar-Jar Binks presidential campaign, by the way). This creative juggernaut has brought Yoda and his comrades (and that whining twit Luke, too) to the big screen for four wildly successful films that have become ingrained in our culture. Yoda is the very embodiment of the power, insight, and downright coolness it takes to do something like that.
What about Kosh? He's not in movies. He's on TV. On basic cable. Not just any basic cable, but TN-freakin'-T! That means that the person who brings us Kosh is Ted Turner--the same man who provides the unwashed masses with such classic and timeless masterpieces as World Championship Wrestling. How can that compete with one of the most successful film franchises of all time???
Prediction: Yoda uses the Force to drop Goldberg (and maybe Sting and Lex Luger, too) on top of Kosh, thus smashing the Vorlon into billions of subatomic particles. For good measure, he'll also use the Force to bitch-slap Kosh with Luke's severed hand a few times.
- Kraftus
Lets look at what Luke, Yoda's apprentice, accomplished after his tutalige: -Failed to save Han. -Got ass kicked by Vader. -Lost hand. -Deveated Jabba (big whoop) and saved Han. -"Endangered the mission." -Surrendered to Empire. -got ass whipped by Emporer. - Got saved by Vader. -Escaped from Death Star (Because Wedge, Lando, and nameless alien dude blew it up without Luke's help). Not an impressive record.
Sheridon, however, after Kosh's teachings went on to do the following: -Take control of the Rangers. -Start Shadow War. -Unify the Non-Aligned Worlds. -Go to Zah-Haddun, and died (minor setback). -Came back from Dead. Kicked Shadow AND Vorlon butt. - Recaptured Earth. -Form Galactic Aliance. -All this and he got the girl.
Neo will be taught by Yoda, but he will eventually learn that he would have been better off listening to Kosh.
- The Animator
Kosh is never wrong when stating a prophecy, though the actual outcome might be a bit different. For instance, he predicts Sheridan's death, but not his resurrection by Lorien. In addition, he can lift things up and hurl them around, shoot cool lighting bolts, and somehow sense the stuff around him beyond normal "eyesight."
On the other hand, we have Yoda. His Force power is the archetype for most other science-fiction powers that come after, probably influencing even those of Kosh. As we know, the original will always beat the copy. But what about Kosh's prophecy power? Yoda will die, if Kosh wasn't simply blowing steam.
Remember, though, that a Jedi master doesn't really die when he dies. For example, even though Yoda is, for all intents and purposes, dead at the end of RotJ, he still shows up in the last scene of the movie with Anakin and Obi-Wan. Clearly, he has staying power beyond death. The problem here, though, is that Jedi are too quick to allow themselves to die. Obi-Wan gives up against Darth Vader, for instance, and Luke prefered to throw himself off of a cliff than face the truth of his parentage. Darth Vader himself asked Luke to remove his helmet, supposedly a death sentence. These guys don't see death as a big thing, and are perfectly willing to take a fall.
The way I see this is that Kosh will kill Yoda rather quickly, but Yoda's ghost will come back and shred Mr. Squid in a Box, who could possibly survive by planting a piece of himself into another being. As the nearest option is Neo (a Keanu Reeves character), he'd probably rather die.
However, since the match is to see who dies first, Kosh is the technical winner.
- DanTe
All bow before the great and mighty chainsaw god-
- Troy "guvnor" Wood
Time to tear into Brendan's "arguments." See, let's look at the lowlight reel of the commentary:
1. Crooked Politicians & Punks Kids are worthless, & Yoda lost to them. Our country's RUN by crooked politicians and our economy's run by whatever punk kids wanna buy. Obviously, Vader and Palpatine overtook Yoda by influencing kids to think the poor li'l guy's the last Pokemon. "Gotta catch 'em all!" Which leads us to...
2. "Going into hiding I must..." Brendan, Vader is the most powerful Force user according to the movies. So he hid from someone who can beat him? That's called INTELLIGENCE. Notice that he's not hiding from Kosh. Therein, he's stronger than Kosh.
3. 3 useless cannon fodder soldiers killed Kosh, not 1. Riiiiiight... Since when have ANY Force users been killed by ANY number of useless cannon fodder? Never. Not a chance. Because Yoda trained him.
Expect Keanu to be spouting lines like "Kill you I must, dude." and "Like, anger leads to...uh....fear & stuff."
- Devin, The most ELECTRIFYING Mental Hospital Escapee in the WWWF!!!!!!!
- El Weirdo
Also, Yoda looks just like my ninety-year-old Italian Grandmother. And as everybody knows, an Italian Grandmother is the MOST powerful force in the universe. No kidding. All it takes is one of those Grannny Rosas in front of the statue of the saint of their choice, and Yoda and Kosh don't stand a chance.
-
- Matthew Threat
- Stantz
"Immovable objects and irresistible forces co-exist uneasily," mutters Kosh, simultaneously making a sound like a cat on hash playing blues harmonica.
"Anger, violence - tools of the Dark Side are they," agrees Yoda. "Conflict through training may we, hRm?"
Both masters turn to Morpheus and Neo.
Morpheus shrugs. "Fine by me. You both get one hour to train Neo. Whoever teaches him a cooler stunt wins. To make it fairer, you'll both do it at the same time using multiple Neo apps in Matrix 2100"
one hour later&
Kosh is thundering: <to Morpheus>"Your OS is sub-Spoo, your candidate lacks a personality!" <to Neo> "Who are you Neo?"
Neo: "Dunno... heh heh"
Kosh begins glowing menacingly.
Meanwhile, Yoda is one righteously PO'd muppet: "Student you call this? *Saviour* you call this? Crotch-crickets I've had that stronger in the Force were!"
Locutus steps up: "I am Locutus of Borg. Your blandness and idiocity will be added to our own. Resistance is futile. Prepare to be assimilated!" <notices Kosh and Yoda giving him dirty looks> "Hey, how often do I get to pick on popular sci-fi plots lamer than Trek's? They think humans make good batteries fer chrissakes!"
Yoda and Kosh look at each other, shrug, and go back to getting nasty. Morpheus and Neo are atomized by the simultaneous application of massive Vorlon beams, Force beams and Borg beams. The special effects are amazing and last for over twenty straight minutes, but the plot isn't advanced any.
- martinl
Yoda then decides to trade his stick for his old lightsaber (TM), which is still in mint condition. Kosh begins to blurt out "Mystic Phrases that don't really make sense."
Kosh: when the grasshopper reflects a piece of rain from the heavens, it is not unlike that of which no-one can understand, which is infinite and al....ACKKCKCCKK!! (Yoda cuts him in half with his lightsaber)
Yoda: Talk too much, you do.
THUNK!! (sound of Reeves walking into a wall again)
- Crude Oil
I voted for Yoda for 1 reason: Who the hell is Kosh? Seriously, you should have fights where people actually know who both of the people are.
- Marlfox 33
If you liked this match, check out these other past
matches:
Babylon 5 v. Deep Space Nine
Ivanova vs. Seven of Nine v. Leia
Other Star Wars™ based Grudge Matches™
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